4 ms·

It ignores all sorts of externalities and world-wide interactions. The concept of living in an isolated rural bubble forever is an illusion. Air and water for

It ignores all sorts of externalities and world-wide interactions. The concept of living in an isolated rural bubble forever is an illusion. Air and water for example, they don't just stick around in one place. So if you pollute something, that pollution happily goes elsewhere making it everyone's problem. Same with disease, or cancer. Say you need to go out to the hospital for radiation treatment every day, and you can't do it without assistance from an ambulance, that gravel road and the no-bridge concept is suddenly a really bad idea. I think it's ignoring more than just 20% of the problems, it's ignoring looking (and planning) ahead, and understanding that not all factors are known, especially not in lower-populated areas. And then there is the power imbalance a supplier will have over a small rural town, as it is unlikely that there is much to choose from, and no real power to influence a large company anyway. So now you're stuck with undrinkable water, bad internet, and barely any healthcare.

bovermyer 4y ago
> It's ignoring looking (and planning) ahead I think this is an unfair statement. You make it sound like rural communities intentionally do not plan ahead, which is both a generalization and inaccurate. I've lived in (very) rural communities that definitely plan ahead. When the consequences of not planning ahead can include death or financial ruin, the incentive to plan ahead is high.
- tstrimple 4y ago
  Yes, they plan ahead so effectively that they have thrown their most valuable resource, fertile topsoil, away while ruining the water for everyone in the search of short term profits. https://www.iowapublicradio.org/news-from-npr/2021-02-24/new-evidence-shows-fertile-soil-gone-from-midwestern-farms https://www.iowapublicradio.org/news-from-npr/2021-02-24/new...
  - anonporridge 4y ago
    This seems like much more the result of external pressures from city dwelling corporate executives who drive competition for cheap agricultural produce to such an unsustainable level that everyone has to do the same destructive practices just to stay in the game. There are many farmers who would love to manage their land more holistically, but recognize that it's financially impossible to do so unless they get lucky and hook a privileged group of rich people who are willing to pay an extreme premium for their food in order to buy non religious indulgences to relieve their guilt for their own contribution to the problem. And really, to lay blame for this problem on the backs of any singular entity alone is absurd. It's a systemic problem that every single one of us participates in. All hail Moloch. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
  - bovermyer 4y ago
    How many small towns or rural areas have you lived in? Wait, don't answer that. Instead, tell me how much time you've spent studying rural economies, rural infrastructure, and the development of rural communities over time.
landemva 4y ago
> undrinkable water Rural life usually is on well and septic, which is hyper-local.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  I can’t wait for the cost of incinerating toilets to go down.
- rnk 4y ago
  What happens when that rural community runs out of water? Almost everywhere we pump more water than the natural aquifers support.
xphos 4y ago
I mean that's kind of ignoring rural problems though... They cannot afford the same type of infrastructure that a city has because the area the communities span is way bigger and in general just different. The problems are different so you need a different solution. I think this is more akin to the other solution solves 20% of problems those rural area's did not even have but now have to maintain the excessive solutions to their detriment. I do agree that it requires looking ahead but that's kind of what the OP is saying the solutions they are being given are not looking ahead to the realistic problems they are actually facing no?
tengbretson 4y ago
It may shock you to hear that people that live in areas like this often have something called community. It includes things like giving neighbors rides to the hospital.
throwaway894345 4y ago
Believe it or not, rural life isn't a new-fangled innovation; it was the default for all of human history and prehistory up until about 2007. Disease is a particularly curious example because disease spreads much more readily in an urban environment. Moreover, just because you're in a rural area doesn't mean you live far from a hospital. My parents live in a rural area and they're 5 minutes from a clinic and 20 minutes to a hospital (perhaps a dozen hospital options in a 40 minute radius and multiple world-class healthcare options in a 3 hour radius). But yes, if you are seriously disabled and you have no meaningful community to help you, then you're probably going to have a hard life in a rural area. Further still, if you move everyone out of rural areas, then you are basically committing your food production to large-scale industrial farming operations as that's the only way it can be done with sufficiently few people. > And then there is the power imbalance a supplier will have over a small rural town, as it is unlikely that there is much to choose from, and no real power to influence a large company anyway. So now you're stuck with undrinkable water, bad internet, and barely any healthcare. ISP monopolies are a problem everywhere, and I don't know why a rural community with their own wells would be subject to worse water quality than an exurban community like Flint or urban communities like Jackson, Baltimore, or NYC. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-growing-drinking-water-crisis-threatens-american-cities-and-towns/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-growing-drinkin... There are also a lot of benefits to living in rural areas--fresher food, cleaner air, access to more/better nature, closer-knit community, dramatically less violent crime, etc.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  > Disease is a particularly curious example because disease spreads much more readily in an urban environment. Mainly for human-only diseases. Bacterial and fungal diseases can be a much different story. Still a couple of naturally occurring anthrax cases in USA per year in rural areas even. > Moreover, just because you're in a rural area doesn't mean you live far from a hospital. This is often a U.S. thing since they have subsidized “critical access hospitals” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Access_Hospital https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Access_Hospital

bovermyer 4y ago

> It's ignoring looking (and planning) ahead I think this is an unfair statement. You make it sound like rural communities intentionally do not plan ahead, which is both a generalization and inaccurate. I've lived in (very) rural communities that definitely plan ahead. When the consequences of not planning ahead can include death or financial ruin, the incentive to plan ahead is high.

tstrimple 4y ago
Yes, they plan ahead so effectively that they have thrown their most valuable resource, fertile topsoil, away while ruining the water for everyone in the search of short term profits. https://www.iowapublicradio.org/news-from-npr/2021-02-24/new-evidence-shows-fertile-soil-gone-from-midwestern-farms https://www.iowapublicradio.org/news-from-npr/2021-02-24/new...
- anonporridge 4y ago
  This seems like much more the result of external pressures from city dwelling corporate executives who drive competition for cheap agricultural produce to such an unsustainable level that everyone has to do the same destructive practices just to stay in the game. There are many farmers who would love to manage their land more holistically, but recognize that it's financially impossible to do so unless they get lucky and hook a privileged group of rich people who are willing to pay an extreme premium for their food in order to buy non religious indulgences to relieve their guilt for their own contribution to the problem. And really, to lay blame for this problem on the backs of any singular entity alone is absurd. It's a systemic problem that every single one of us participates in. All hail Moloch. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- bovermyer 4y ago
  How many small towns or rural areas have you lived in? Wait, don't answer that. Instead, tell me how much time you've spent studying rural economies, rural infrastructure, and the development of rural communities over time.

landemva 4y ago

> undrinkable water Rural life usually is on well and septic, which is hyper-local.

Scoundreller 4y ago
I can’t wait for the cost of incinerating toilets to go down.
rnk 4y ago
What happens when that rural community runs out of water? Almost everywhere we pump more water than the natural aquifers support.

xphos 4y ago

I mean that's kind of ignoring rural problems though... They cannot afford the same type of infrastructure that a city has because the area the communities span is way bigger and in general just different. The problems are different so you need a different solution. I think this is more akin to the other solution solves 20% of problems those rural area's did not even have but now have to maintain the excessive solutions to their detriment. I do agree that it requires looking ahead but that's kind of what the OP is saying the solutions they are being given are not looking ahead to the realistic problems they are actually facing no?

tengbretson 4y ago

It may shock you to hear that people that live in areas like this often have something called community. It includes things like giving neighbors rides to the hospital.

throwaway894345 4y ago

Believe it or not, rural life isn't a new-fangled innovation; it was the default for all of human history and prehistory up until about 2007. Disease is a particularly curious example because disease spreads much more readily in an urban environment. Moreover, just because you're in a rural area doesn't mean you live far from a hospital. My parents live in a rural area and they're 5 minutes from a clinic and 20 minutes to a hospital (perhaps a dozen hospital options in a 40 minute radius and multiple world-class healthcare options in a 3 hour radius). But yes, if you are seriously disabled and you have no meaningful community to help you, then you're probably going to have a hard life in a rural area. Further still, if you move everyone out of rural areas, then you are basically committing your food production to large-scale industrial farming operations as that's the only way it can be done with sufficiently few people. > And then there is the power imbalance a supplier will have over a small rural town, as it is unlikely that there is much to choose from, and no real power to influence a large company anyway. So now you're stuck with undrinkable water, bad internet, and barely any healthcare. ISP monopolies are a problem everywhere, and I don't know why a rural community with their own wells would be subject to worse water quality than an exurban community like Flint or urban communities like Jackson, Baltimore, or NYC. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-growing-drinking-water-crisis-threatens-american-cities-and-towns/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-growing-drinkin... There are also a lot of benefits to living in rural areas--fresher food, cleaner air, access to more/better nature, closer-knit community, dramatically less violent crime, etc.

Scoundreller 4y ago
> Disease is a particularly curious example because disease spreads much more readily in an urban environment. Mainly for human-only diseases. Bacterial and fungal diseases can be a much different story. Still a couple of naturally occurring anthrax cases in USA per year in rural areas even. > Moreover, just because you're in a rural area doesn't mean you live far from a hospital. This is often a U.S. thing since they have subsidized “critical access hospitals” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Access_Hospital https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Access_Hospital