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I am the opposite. I vote up easily, but think a hundred times before downvoting. Downvoting feels like censorship to me.

FpUser 4y ago
I never downvote at all. It reminds me for some reasons faceless mob with the clubs. But I have to admit that I do not upvote enough. Definitely not all the deserving posts.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  I rarely downvote here, but that's because the quality is already high. A part of keeping it this way is vigorously downvoting unrelated/lazy/overly emotional comments, so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-) Only unproductive comments, of course. Different opinions should be welcome.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    >"so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-)" I think it needs moderators doing their jobs with appropriate tools.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      What if those appropriate tools include upvote/downvote/flag/vouch by community members?
      - FpUser 4y ago
        I do not believe those "tools" to be appropriate. Others can of course feel different but I do not care. There is no need to "win" the argument.
UberFly 4y ago
That's good because I always wonder about the dynamic of the establishment "old guard" voting down everything they don't agree with.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
- Udo 4y ago
  Whoever the "old guard" is, they don't have special downvoting powers, do they? In the end, it's a numbers game. As far as I can tell, every user gets exactly one vote, no matter how influential. If "they" really hate you, or if enough normal users flag you, HN has other ways of letting you know, like shadow banning/auto-deading or flagging your account so your comments immediately fall to the bottom of the page no matter how many upvotes they receive. As long as you don't see either effect, you're probably doing okay here.
  - aeyes 4y ago
    Can you even downvote on new accounts?
    - Udo 4y ago
      You need to be above a certain karma threshold, but it's not high (500 or so).
iamben 4y ago
Yes, I'm very much the same. I'm happy to (attempt to! re-)upvote comments that have been downvoted, as long as they're actually thoughtful and contribute to the argument/conversation, and obviously (and often!) I'll upvote a well thought through comment. I seem to go through periods where I downvote more often, but almost without exception it's just downvoting pointless/sarcastic/unpleasant comments. Gotta say though - for a 10+ year old community, I remain amazed that the discourse is usually civil, largely intelligent and still(!) remains spam free.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Same here. I will also often vouch new comments; even if I don't agree with them. The bar is whether or not they are coming from a respectful and contribute to the conversation.
xxs 4y ago
>Downvoting feels like censorship to me. because it works that way here
xienze 4y ago
I wonder why this site -- or any site with up/downvoting, really -- doesn't implement a "must comment to downvote" policy. Far too often downvoting is just the "I disagree and think you suck" button[0]. Make someone elaborate on _why_ they disagree or _why_ the original poster is wrong before allowing a downvote. 0: in particular, on HN the downvote button also seems to serve the purpose of "I don't think other people should see what you have to say" button due to HN's passive-aggressive greying out of downvoted comments.
- detaro 4y ago
  That's a surefire way to give more attention to bad posts and cause flamewars that spiral out of control.
  - xienze 4y ago
    I think you’re making the flawed assumption that no one would ever downvote something that might be well-intentioned, well-argued, but unpopular (for example, literally anything about Covid that goes against popular opinion).
    - detaro 4y ago
      No, I'm not assuming that. You can't have "must comment to downvote" just for those though, and having it for all is bad for the given reasons.
- Udo 4y ago
  People have differing opinions on downvoting. The majority seems to think that disagreement is enough. Personally, I'm in the same camp as you: a comment has to actively detract from the conversation to get my downvote. I don't see HN changing in that regard though. Requiring a comment is probably a bit much, but I do think two separate downvote buttons would be helpful to the commenter, even if only they could see this feedback. Maybe one link labeled with "disagree" and one with "low quality" or something. UI-wise this would have the added benefit of letting new users know that HN officially expects them to consider both options.
zimbatm 4y ago
What we're looking for are high signal/noise ration posts to expand the conversation into new areas that are interesting. If the ratio is too low (eg: spam, shallow content, same old tired point), it's not an issue to downvote IMO. That helps with the current post and also encourages good behaviour in the future. This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  > This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community. But this is what CONSTANTLY happens here. It is the norm everywhere there is likes/dislikes. It is inverse authoritarianism.
  - zimbatm 4y ago
    It would be interesting to ask users to classify their up/downvotes as opinion vs signal/noise ratio. Maybe that's the next evolution of leaderboard systems like HN/reddit?
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
> Downvoting feels like censorship to me. It is. As is upvoting, since it makes the unvoted and down voted harder to see. I do not understand why people think this "mob rule" of up and down voting will end up with the "best" things being selected. It will only be the most common/neutral things being brought to our attention. Unpopular ideas are not wrong, just unpopular. Just ask Copernicus.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
There are going to be so many random up and down votes in this thread... :)
kibwen 4y ago
Upvoting is just as censoring as downvoting is, which is to say, it's not censorship at all. "Free speech" does not mean that all speech is equally valuable. Some speech is worthless noise, and recognizing that is the only way to have useful discourse in an open forum.

FpUser 4y ago

I never downvote at all. It reminds me for some reasons faceless mob with the clubs. But I have to admit that I do not upvote enough. Definitely not all the deserving posts.

solarkraft 4y ago
I rarely downvote here, but that's because the quality is already high. A part of keeping it this way is vigorously downvoting unrelated/lazy/overly emotional comments, so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-) Only unproductive comments, of course. Different opinions should be welcome.
- FpUser 4y ago
  >"so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-)" I think it needs moderators doing their jobs with appropriate tools.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    What if those appropriate tools include upvote/downvote/flag/vouch by community members?
    - FpUser 4y ago
      I do not believe those "tools" to be appropriate. Others can of course feel different but I do not care. There is no need to "win" the argument.

UberFly 4y ago

That's good because I always wonder about the dynamic of the establishment "old guard" voting down everything they don't agree with.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Udo 4y ago
Whoever the "old guard" is, they don't have special downvoting powers, do they? In the end, it's a numbers game. As far as I can tell, every user gets exactly one vote, no matter how influential. If "they" really hate you, or if enough normal users flag you, HN has other ways of letting you know, like shadow banning/auto-deading or flagging your account so your comments immediately fall to the bottom of the page no matter how many upvotes they receive. As long as you don't see either effect, you're probably doing okay here.
- aeyes 4y ago
  Can you even downvote on new accounts?
  - Udo 4y ago
    You need to be above a certain karma threshold, but it's not high (500 or so).

iamben 4y ago

Yes, I'm very much the same. I'm happy to (attempt to! re-)upvote comments that have been downvoted, as long as they're actually thoughtful and contribute to the argument/conversation, and obviously (and often!) I'll upvote a well thought through comment. I seem to go through periods where I downvote more often, but almost without exception it's just downvoting pointless/sarcastic/unpleasant comments. Gotta say though - for a 10+ year old community, I remain amazed that the discourse is usually civil, largely intelligent and still(!) remains spam free.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

Same here. I will also often vouch new comments; even if I don't agree with them. The bar is whether or not they are coming from a respectful and contribute to the conversation.

xxs 4y ago

>Downvoting feels like censorship to me. because it works that way here

xienze 4y ago

I wonder why this site -- or any site with up/downvoting, really -- doesn't implement a "must comment to downvote" policy. Far too often downvoting is just the "I disagree and think you suck" button[0]. Make someone elaborate on _why_ they disagree or _why_ the original poster is wrong before allowing a downvote. 0: in particular, on HN the downvote button also seems to serve the purpose of "I don't think other people should see what you have to say" button due to HN's passive-aggressive greying out of downvoted comments.

detaro 4y ago
That's a surefire way to give more attention to bad posts and cause flamewars that spiral out of control.
- xienze 4y ago
  I think you’re making the flawed assumption that no one would ever downvote something that might be well-intentioned, well-argued, but unpopular (for example, literally anything about Covid that goes against popular opinion).
  - detaro 4y ago
    No, I'm not assuming that. You can't have "must comment to downvote" just for those though, and having it for all is bad for the given reasons.
Udo 4y ago
People have differing opinions on downvoting. The majority seems to think that disagreement is enough. Personally, I'm in the same camp as you: a comment has to actively detract from the conversation to get my downvote. I don't see HN changing in that regard though. Requiring a comment is probably a bit much, but I do think two separate downvote buttons would be helpful to the commenter, even if only they could see this feedback. Maybe one link labeled with "disagree" and one with "low quality" or something. UI-wise this would have the added benefit of letting new users know that HN officially expects them to consider both options.

zimbatm 4y ago

What we're looking for are high signal/noise ration posts to expand the conversation into new areas that are interesting. If the ratio is too low (eg: spam, shallow content, same old tired point), it's not an issue to downvote IMO. That helps with the current post and also encourages good behaviour in the future. This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
> This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community. But this is what CONSTANTLY happens here. It is the norm everywhere there is likes/dislikes. It is inverse authoritarianism.
- zimbatm 4y ago
  It would be interesting to ask users to classify their up/downvotes as opinion vs signal/noise ratio. Maybe that's the next evolution of leaderboard systems like HN/reddit?

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

> Downvoting feels like censorship to me. It is. As is upvoting, since it makes the unvoted and down voted harder to see. I do not understand why people think this "mob rule" of up and down voting will end up with the "best" things being selected. It will only be the most common/neutral things being brought to our attention. Unpopular ideas are not wrong, just unpopular. Just ask Copernicus.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

There are going to be so many random up and down votes in this thread... :)

kibwen 4y ago

Upvoting is just as censoring as downvoting is, which is to say, it's not censorship at all. "Free speech" does not mean that all speech is equally valuable. Some speech is worthless noise, and recognizing that is the only way to have useful discourse in an open forum.