4 ms·

I disagree. We live in the most materially abundant country in the most materially abundant time. It is not a material problem. It is cultural. Society is feel

I disagree. We live in the most materially abundant country in the most materially abundant time. It is not a material problem. It is cultural. Society is feeling like a less good joyful place for children. "It takes a village to raise a child". There have never been fewer villages.

Ztynovovk 4y ago
18k a year for a kid is expensive. Like a quarter of the median household income. Not to mention the time commitment. My friends lives were never the same after they had a kid. It’s a no for me dog. At least rn.
- starik36 4y ago
  There are lots of things that are expensive. Sometimes because they are worth it.
  - Ztynovovk 4y ago
    Sure, whatever. Obviously it’s a personal choice.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Can you please provide some context what these 18k stand for?
  - Ztynovovk 4y ago
    Stack. Band. G. A Rack. 1000s bro. 18,000 USD.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Anectdotally, for me, just moving to an apartment with an additional room increased my expenses for rent by about 15k€ per year.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  Live small with less material and less consumption. Less services too. And you will do just fine. But no. That is not what you have been taught to do. That is not the sacrifice you have been told to make. I have known that when I start, it will be the smallest of homes with the cheapest of foods and reduced living which means no internet, no cell phone service, no tv. For the simplest of things, I would go to the library or the nearest cafe or use some known Wi-Fi point. And I am ok with starting life like that. How many other people are ok with that?
  - imtringued 4y ago
    I am not okay with that because internet and computers are very cheap. A single rental payment is enough to pay for almost two years of 100mbit internet. Three rental payments are enough to pay for a reasonably high end PC which lasts 6 years (no I don't mean a PC with a thousand dollar graphics card). And we are still talking about a cheap 500€ per month apartment with only one bedroom here. In practice you would pay more. Products made in Asia are a drop in the bucket compared to rent in even the cheapest parts of Germany. I don't think 500€ is an excessively high rental price, I just disagree that anyone would have to do without these products.
hogepiyo 4y ago
I'm not sure how you can say something like this in good faith Sure, in raw numbers, maybe that's true Compared to previous decades where you could get on the housing ladder reasonably easily and support a family with only one full time income, not so much
- Thorrez 4y ago
  In the 1800s they had 6-8 people living in a single room in NYC, with no windows and no plumbing.[1] My grandma (still alive today) grew up in the US without plumbing. She had to use an outhouse. There's an inverse relationship between wealth and fertility. Wealthy countries are less fertile than poor countries. Within wealthy countries the wealthier people are less fertile than the poorer people.[2] [1] https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  You can easily get 1950s quality housing and support a family to 1950s quality of life on today's single income. Our parents and grandparents quite simply expected much less from life than we do today. It is really quite blatantly clear: as societies get wealthier, the fertility falls instead of rising.
  - weatherlite 4y ago
    You can easily get thrown out of the workforce due to offshoring, AI automation or ageism. Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions and kept the same job till retirement. I'd take the 50s if this is the future the elites are planning for us.
    - Thorrez 4y ago
      >Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions Larry Page's grandpa was an autoworker, and had to carry around a pipe with a hunk of lead on it to avoid getting beaten up by his employer. https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept-a-lead-pipe-as-a-weapon-in-case-he-had-to-bludgeon-his-employers-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept...
hjgjhyuhy 4y ago
Materially abundant nowadays means cheap felectronics, clothes and low cost flights. However, supporting family was much easier in the 50s because housing was so much cheaper and much better job security with less education. It’s insane what boomers could afford by their 30s.
rippercushions 4y ago
People in ye olden days didn't get married because they "felt good and joyful" about raising children, they did it because it was the only way to have sex and the only way to have children, which was not just for fun, but because you needed helping hands on the farm and somebody to take care of you in old age.
- csomar 4y ago
  It’s funny everyone is oblivious to this, or wants to be. In almost all religions and cultures, universally, having sex outside of marriage is outlawed. In order to have sex, you must get married. >> When looking into the Maya world of Yucatán, we find that during the 18th century and beginnings of the 19th century, it was the custom for males to marry at age 17 or 18, and females at age 14 or 15. >> The parents preferred, for their sons, girls from the same social class and town. As well, it was considered petty if the male looked for a companion for himself or his children, rather than obtaining the servces of a professional matchmaker (ah atanzah). >> Once the matchmaker was selected, the ceremony and the amount of the dowry were discussed. This usually consisted of dresses and other items of little value, which were paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride as a marriage pledge; for her part, the groom’s mother prepared the clothing for her son and for her future daughter-in-law. What drives you to have children, as a human male, is the desire for sex. Once you remove that, many will pick to not have kids anymore.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    So your theory is that extra-marital sex is a modern invention? I would say your example of the Maya shows more that many old societies had extremely powerful marriage pressure put on what we would consider children or at best adolsecents, who would have been far less able to resist such pressures than today. I don't see any agency about sex in the citation you give.
- refurb 4y ago
  I think you're mistaking "we don't talk about pre-marital sex" with "we don't have pre-marital sex".
nikanj 4y ago
Material is cheap, I can get a new TV or a set of tools for a fraction of the price they cost in the past. But actual necessities (education, shelter, healthcare) are incredibly expensive. I’d be happy to trade my cheap plastic crap from Walmart for a $45000 house and a $1200/y tuition
imtringued 4y ago
The future is unevenly distributed.

Ztynovovk 4y ago

18k a year for a kid is expensive. Like a quarter of the median household income. Not to mention the time commitment. My friends lives were never the same after they had a kid. It’s a no for me dog. At least rn.

starik36 4y ago
There are lots of things that are expensive. Sometimes because they are worth it.
- Ztynovovk 4y ago
  Sure, whatever. Obviously it’s a personal choice.
thriftwy 4y ago
Can you please provide some context what these 18k stand for?
- Ztynovovk 4y ago
  Stack. Band. G. A Rack. 1000s bro. 18,000 USD.
- adrianN 4y ago
  Anectdotally, for me, just moving to an apartment with an additional room increased my expenses for rent by about 15k€ per year.
nashashmi 4y ago
Live small with less material and less consumption. Less services too. And you will do just fine. But no. That is not what you have been taught to do. That is not the sacrifice you have been told to make. I have known that when I start, it will be the smallest of homes with the cheapest of foods and reduced living which means no internet, no cell phone service, no tv. For the simplest of things, I would go to the library or the nearest cafe or use some known Wi-Fi point. And I am ok with starting life like that. How many other people are ok with that?
- imtringued 4y ago
  I am not okay with that because internet and computers are very cheap. A single rental payment is enough to pay for almost two years of 100mbit internet. Three rental payments are enough to pay for a reasonably high end PC which lasts 6 years (no I don't mean a PC with a thousand dollar graphics card). And we are still talking about a cheap 500€ per month apartment with only one bedroom here. In practice you would pay more. Products made in Asia are a drop in the bucket compared to rent in even the cheapest parts of Germany. I don't think 500€ is an excessively high rental price, I just disagree that anyone would have to do without these products.

hogepiyo 4y ago

I'm not sure how you can say something like this in good faith Sure, in raw numbers, maybe that's true Compared to previous decades where you could get on the housing ladder reasonably easily and support a family with only one full time income, not so much

Thorrez 4y ago
In the 1800s they had 6-8 people living in a single room in NYC, with no windows and no plumbing.[1] My grandma (still alive today) grew up in the US without plumbing. She had to use an outhouse. There's an inverse relationship between wealth and fertility. Wealthy countries are less fertile than poor countries. Within wealthy countries the wealthier people are less fertile than the poorer people.[2] [1] https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 https://youtu.be/RL7BECNn-RI?t=151 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
xyzzyz 4y ago
You can easily get 1950s quality housing and support a family to 1950s quality of life on today's single income. Our parents and grandparents quite simply expected much less from life than we do today. It is really quite blatantly clear: as societies get wealthier, the fertility falls instead of rising.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  You can easily get thrown out of the workforce due to offshoring, AI automation or ageism. Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions and kept the same job till retirement. I'd take the 50s if this is the future the elites are planning for us.
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    >Our grandparents didn't need to deal with all that they had strong unions Larry Page's grandpa was an autoworker, and had to carry around a pipe with a hunk of lead on it to avoid getting beaten up by his employer. https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept-a-lead-pipe-as-a-weapon-in-case-he-had-to-bludgeon-his-employers-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/larry-pages-grandfather-kept...

hjgjhyuhy 4y ago

Materially abundant nowadays means cheap felectronics, clothes and low cost flights. However, supporting family was much easier in the 50s because housing was so much cheaper and much better job security with less education. It’s insane what boomers could afford by their 30s.

rippercushions 4y ago

People in ye olden days didn't get married because they "felt good and joyful" about raising children, they did it because it was the only way to have sex and the only way to have children, which was not just for fun, but because you needed helping hands on the farm and somebody to take care of you in old age.

csomar 4y ago
It’s funny everyone is oblivious to this, or wants to be. In almost all religions and cultures, universally, having sex outside of marriage is outlawed. In order to have sex, you must get married. >> When looking into the Maya world of Yucatán, we find that during the 18th century and beginnings of the 19th century, it was the custom for males to marry at age 17 or 18, and females at age 14 or 15. >> The parents preferred, for their sons, girls from the same social class and town. As well, it was considered petty if the male looked for a companion for himself or his children, rather than obtaining the servces of a professional matchmaker (ah atanzah). >> Once the matchmaker was selected, the ceremony and the amount of the dowry were discussed. This usually consisted of dresses and other items of little value, which were paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride as a marriage pledge; for her part, the groom’s mother prepared the clothing for her son and for her future daughter-in-law. What drives you to have children, as a human male, is the desire for sex. Once you remove that, many will pick to not have kids anymore.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  So your theory is that extra-marital sex is a modern invention? I would say your example of the Maya shows more that many old societies had extremely powerful marriage pressure put on what we would consider children or at best adolsecents, who would have been far less able to resist such pressures than today. I don't see any agency about sex in the citation you give.
refurb 4y ago
I think you're mistaking "we don't talk about pre-marital sex" with "we don't have pre-marital sex".

nikanj 4y ago

Material is cheap, I can get a new TV or a set of tools for a fraction of the price they cost in the past. But actual necessities (education, shelter, healthcare) are incredibly expensive. I’d be happy to trade my cheap plastic crap from Walmart for a $45000 house and a $1200/y tuition

imtringued 4y ago

The future is unevenly distributed.