4 ms·

I’m going to pull another quote from that section that I think also supports the idea. There are specific cases cited in the book… I just don’t think copying an

by teeray 4y ago

I’m going to pull another quote from that section that I think also supports the idea. There are specific cases cited in the book… I just don’t think copying an entire section of a book will be as helpful at getting the ideas out here: > “Dr. Wiener[0] worried, and I agree, that the paradox of automation is that it often lowers a pilot’s workload when that load is already low. And it sometimes increases the workload in the cockpit when it is already high… For those who believe technology is the answer to everything, [he] would offer data to prove that isn’t the case. He said that automated airplanes with the highest technologies do not eliminate errors. They change the nature of the errors that are made. For example, in terms of navigational errors, automation enables pilots to make huge navigation errors very precisely… Dr. Wiener is not antitechnology, and neither am I. But technology is no substitute for experience, skill, and judgment.”[1] [0] “Earl Wiener, Ph.D., a former Air Force pilot who is now retired from the University of Miami’s department of management science. He is renowned for his work in helping us understand aviation safety.”[1] [1] Sully: My Search for What Really Matters by Chesley B. "Sully" Sullenberger III, Jeffrey Zaslow https://a.co/gRNJtON https://a.co/gRNJtON

jrockway 4y ago
That makes a lot of sense. Automation is more interesting in how it can enhance human capabilities. Humans don't need a whole lot of help keeping the wings straight and level on a clear day. But they do need help landing the airplane in dense fog, and two humans and three computers working together can actually do that. The computers can't do it by themselves, the humans can't do it by themselves, but together, they can!
- GauntletWizard 4y ago
  As a SRE, or what I'm going to term "Operations Automation Engineer" (because like DevOps or Systems Administrator, there's a treadmill of terminology), I have often automated myself out of my secondary responsibilities, the ones that take up the majority of my time. At Google, we liked to joke that "It's SRE's job to automate ourselves out of our jobs every 18 months", and I think that from the perspective of time, that was very true. Whatever we spent most of our time on eighteen months ago should be a trivial task today. What I can't automate myself out of is my primary responsibility; Making sure that the site or service is up and available and making our customers happy. I can make constant improvements to that, with occasional backslides, but what I'm paid to do and feel comfortable with my job security is to make a reliable, trustworthy service. That's not going anywhere.
- AustinDev 4y ago
  > But they do need help landing the airplane in dense fog, and two humans and three computers working together can actually do that. The computers can't do it by themselves, the humans can't do it by themselves, but together, they can! This is not remotely true. Two humans can easily land in dense fog with instruments alone. If you can't then you shouldn't be flying a plane especially not one with passengers. To suggest otherwise is absurd.
bmitc 4y ago
In general, I don't understand the push of humans to want to replace everything we do with machines. What's the point? What's the end goal? We just sit in a vat of embalming fluid consuming media with a feeding tube while machines whir about? Why can't enough ever be enough for humanity?
- AndyMcConachie 4y ago
  It's simply about avoiding labor costs and for the capitalist class to make more money. That's it.
- gnopgnip 4y ago
  About 1/3rd of the cost of an airline ticket is labor. Many people in the travel industry would rather be at home with their families, traveling themselves, pursuing other hobbies instead of working
  - tartoran 4y ago
    > Many people in the travel industry would rather be at home with their families, traveling themselves, pursuing other hobbies instead of working But they’re not because they need the paycheck. You’re fooling yourself to think the fruits of automated labor will not end up simply laying them off with basically no other benefits than the general population: slightly cheaper air travel (if nobody else gobbles up the differential). In the end excessive automation it’s a bad proposition for labor in general.
  - TomSwirly 4y ago
    Most people I know would stop working in an instant if that didn't mean they ended up living on the street. But we will never get that choice. Once all our jobs are destroyed, there isn't going to be any help coming. We will simply be classed as inferior workers, and society will brush us off in favor of the 0.1%
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    The number one reason why people work is because they need the money. Even if you enjoy your job there are still days you'd rather stay in bed.
amelius 4y ago
Playing Devil's advocate: but what if technology makes the number of accidents go down statistically?
- avidphantasm 4y ago
  Then put the technology in and still have two pilots. This is a rare case, these days, where a democratically elected (kinda sorta) government can exert control over the appropriate degree of automation in an industry. We shouldn’t cave to the airlines. Look what we let happen to the railroads, which will likely collapse in the next few years due to excessive automation.
buu700 4y ago
For example, in terms of navigational errors, automation enables pilots to make huge navigation errors very precisely… That's kind of interesting. It sounds similar to how every once in a while, pre-smartwatches, I would walk a mile or so on my way somewhere before noticing that Google Maps had me pointed in the opposite direction.

by teeray 4y ago

jrockway 4y ago

That makes a lot of sense. Automation is more interesting in how it can enhance human capabilities. Humans don't need a whole lot of help keeping the wings straight and level on a clear day. But they do need help landing the airplane in dense fog, and two humans and three computers working together can actually do that. The computers can't do it by themselves, the humans can't do it by themselves, but together, they can!

GauntletWizard 4y ago
As a SRE, or what I'm going to term "Operations Automation Engineer" (because like DevOps or Systems Administrator, there's a treadmill of terminology), I have often automated myself out of my secondary responsibilities, the ones that take up the majority of my time. At Google, we liked to joke that "It's SRE's job to automate ourselves out of our jobs every 18 months", and I think that from the perspective of time, that was very true. Whatever we spent most of our time on eighteen months ago should be a trivial task today. What I can't automate myself out of is my primary responsibility; Making sure that the site or service is up and available and making our customers happy. I can make constant improvements to that, with occasional backslides, but what I'm paid to do and feel comfortable with my job security is to make a reliable, trustworthy service. That's not going anywhere.
AustinDev 4y ago
> But they do need help landing the airplane in dense fog, and two humans and three computers working together can actually do that. The computers can't do it by themselves, the humans can't do it by themselves, but together, they can! This is not remotely true. Two humans can easily land in dense fog with instruments alone. If you can't then you shouldn't be flying a plane especially not one with passengers. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

bmitc 4y ago

In general, I don't understand the push of humans to want to replace everything we do with machines. What's the point? What's the end goal? We just sit in a vat of embalming fluid consuming media with a feeding tube while machines whir about? Why can't enough ever be enough for humanity?

AndyMcConachie 4y ago
It's simply about avoiding labor costs and for the capitalist class to make more money. That's it.
gnopgnip 4y ago
About 1/3rd of the cost of an airline ticket is labor. Many people in the travel industry would rather be at home with their families, traveling themselves, pursuing other hobbies instead of working
- tartoran 4y ago
  > Many people in the travel industry would rather be at home with their families, traveling themselves, pursuing other hobbies instead of working But they’re not because they need the paycheck. You’re fooling yourself to think the fruits of automated labor will not end up simply laying them off with basically no other benefits than the general population: slightly cheaper air travel (if nobody else gobbles up the differential). In the end excessive automation it’s a bad proposition for labor in general.
- TomSwirly 4y ago
  Most people I know would stop working in an instant if that didn't mean they ended up living on the street. But we will never get that choice. Once all our jobs are destroyed, there isn't going to be any help coming. We will simply be classed as inferior workers, and society will brush us off in favor of the 0.1%
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  The number one reason why people work is because they need the money. Even if you enjoy your job there are still days you'd rather stay in bed.

amelius 4y ago

Playing Devil's advocate: but what if technology makes the number of accidents go down statistically?

avidphantasm 4y ago
Then put the technology in and still have two pilots. This is a rare case, these days, where a democratically elected (kinda sorta) government can exert control over the appropriate degree of automation in an industry. We shouldn’t cave to the airlines. Look what we let happen to the railroads, which will likely collapse in the next few years due to excessive automation.

buu700 4y ago

For example, in terms of navigational errors, automation enables pilots to make huge navigation errors very precisely… That's kind of interesting. It sounds similar to how every once in a while, pre-smartwatches, I would walk a mile or so on my way somewhere before noticing that Google Maps had me pointed in the opposite direction.