12 ms·

Similar fun fact: Harvard is immune to eminent domain, because the original constitution of Massachusetts ensured that all of Harvard's then-existing rights wou

by kibwen 4y ago

Similar fun fact: Harvard is immune to eminent domain, because the original constitution of Massachusetts ensured that all of Harvard's then-existing rights would remain in effect "forever", and apparently that includes a dusty old letter from King George or something stating that Harvard cannot be subject to eminent domain. Harvard has used this to reroute a subway tunnel that would otherwise have run under Harvard Yard. So the next time you're on the red line and wondering why the train slows to a crawl as it passes that sharp turn around the Harvard stop, now you know.

glompers 4y ago
Multiple urban legends reported as fact. Massachusetts Bay Colony lost its royal charter anyway for hanging Quakers. Edit: wiki reference added in following comment
glompers 4y ago
That fact about Harvard sounds like multiple urban legends. For one thing Harvard began in the 1630s, yet in 1684 the King dissolved Massachusetts Bay Colony's 1628 royal charter because of their bad behavior (hanging of Friends). Anything about eminent domain would have had to be put in a 1691 new charter: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Charter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Charter
anshumankmr 4y ago
>dusty old letter from King George Wow. That's crazy. Is there a picture of it somewhere? Or is it locked in a deep vault somewhere in Harvard
ilamont 4y ago
This is as far as the facts go, and only lore is left. Here, however, is how the story goes. When, in 1974, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority sought to extend the Red Line beyond Harvard Square, the state began plans to dig underneath Harvard Yard. They got so far as to build a platform approximately underneath Wigglesworth Hall. In fact, you may see the ghost station when you ride the T, on the right side of the train as it slows down and nears the platform at Harvard station. However, Harvard would not tolerate the thought of a tunnel below its sacred grounds, disturbing the scholarly peace and quiet of the Yard. Allegedly, Harvard hired a team of lawyers who took the MBTA to court. According to lore, they presented before the judge a glass encased letter granting Harvard exemption from eminent domain signed by General George Washington. As for the veracity of the story, I have not found substantive proof other than repeated versions of the story told in forums. However, it is true that Harvard inexplicably convinced the MBTA to build around the Yard despite an astronomical increase in the cost of construction. https://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-snollygoster/article/2012/10/19/harvard-eminent-domain/ https://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-snollygoster/article/2...
- rd 4y ago
  I lived in Wigglesworth last year. I swear this isn't true because I woke up damn near everynight from the rumbling below my room.
  - objclxt 4y ago
    That’s the tunnel along Mass Ave, which Wigglesworth runs parallel to, rather than going through the yard itself.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Lol. Harvard hiring lawyers. Thats like hogwarts bringing in consultant wizards.
  - tetris11 4y ago
    Or Death Eaters, as they prefer to be called.
    - loganc2342 4y ago
      The wizards or the lawyers?
  - CobrastanJorji 4y ago
    Harvard has three kinds of law people. First, it has its own lawyers. They're fine, but they're mostly not the court kind of lawyers. Second, it has law students. Those aren't lawyers, so you don't want them either. Third, it has law professors, who are generally well known or renowned for past deeds or theoretical legal philosophy, but mostly they're either out of practice, never practiced, or they've got insane (for example, Alan Dershowitz is a professor there). You don't want any of those folks nearby when courtroom stuff needs to happen. Hogwarts has a similar problem, now that I think about it. Hugely powerful wizards defending a school from a tiny number of adversaries, they've got all the time in the world to prepare, and yet they're terrible at it. They build a huge multilayered vault that's bypassed by three unprepared kids. They should've brought in professionals.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
The part about "Harvard is immune to eminent domain" is definitely apocryphal. I'm quite positive the United States doesn't give legal credence to "dusty old letters from King George".
- JackFr 4y ago
  My father was a real estate appraiser for the New York State Department of Transportation whose job was to appraise land taken under eminent domain. There are plenty of parcels of land whose title is literally a pre-Revolution Crown Grant. That matters not a whit with respect to eminent domain. (OK - maybe not plenty but at least two.)
- refurb 4y ago
  The US absolutely respects agreements prior to land becoming territory of the United States. Of course, it all depends on the agreement, so I have no idea if the Harvard story is correct. But a good example are the ranchos in California. They were land grants by the Mexican government when it was Mexican territory. When the US acquired California after the Mexican-American war, the agreement was all such land grants were deemed valid going forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > The US absolutely respects agreements prior to land becoming territory of the United States The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo has not been fully followed, even according to the US government. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-04-59 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-04-59
    - refurb 4y ago
      Those claims are about how the original land grants were respected, not if they were respected. That may sound like mincing words, but it's an important distinction.
goodcanadian 4y ago
I'm skeptical. I looked at google maps, and I allow that it may not be perfectly accurate, but the line appears to follow surface roads in the area which allows for cheap and easy (relatively) cut and cover tunnels. Further, if the line already existed to Harvard Square, there is no reasonable alignment that would take an extension under Harvard yard. The line turns because the road turns and that is the direction they wanted to go. They also had to deal with the pre-existing station and tracks. It was probably determined to be the best option as trains would already be stopping at the station, anyway.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yeah, it seems to basically follow Mass Ave from Harvard to Porter which makes perfect sense. (There's some one-way funkiness on the surface street--Boston/Cambridge, what can you say?) But given that the Hardware Square station existed at the time of the Red Line extension, I'm not sure why you would go under Harvard Yard. I'm willing to believe that Harvard Square station could have been located differently in a way that didn't require such a dogleg approaching Harvard Yard but that decision happened a very long time ago.
yucky 4y ago
I always heard that this was so you could park your car in Harvard yard.
- glompers 4y ago
  The walkways there _are_ paved in easy-to-level asphalt rather than, you know, cobblestones

by kibwen 4y ago

glompers 4y ago

Multiple urban legends reported as fact. Massachusetts Bay Colony lost its royal charter anyway for hanging Quakers. Edit: wiki reference added in following comment

glompers 4y ago

That fact about Harvard sounds like multiple urban legends. For one thing Harvard began in the 1630s, yet in 1684 the King dissolved Massachusetts Bay Colony's 1628 royal charter because of their bad behavior (hanging of Friends). Anything about eminent domain would have had to be put in a 1691 new charter: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Charter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Charter

anshumankmr 4y ago

>dusty old letter from King George Wow. That's crazy. Is there a picture of it somewhere? Or is it locked in a deep vault somewhere in Harvard

ilamont 4y ago

This is as far as the facts go, and only lore is left. Here, however, is how the story goes. When, in 1974, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority sought to extend the Red Line beyond Harvard Square, the state began plans to dig underneath Harvard Yard. They got so far as to build a platform approximately underneath Wigglesworth Hall. In fact, you may see the ghost station when you ride the T, on the right side of the train as it slows down and nears the platform at Harvard station. However, Harvard would not tolerate the thought of a tunnel below its sacred grounds, disturbing the scholarly peace and quiet of the Yard. Allegedly, Harvard hired a team of lawyers who took the MBTA to court. According to lore, they presented before the judge a glass encased letter granting Harvard exemption from eminent domain signed by General George Washington. As for the veracity of the story, I have not found substantive proof other than repeated versions of the story told in forums. However, it is true that Harvard inexplicably convinced the MBTA to build around the Yard despite an astronomical increase in the cost of construction. https://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-snollygoster/article/2012/10/19/harvard-eminent-domain/ https://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-snollygoster/article/2...

rd 4y ago
I lived in Wigglesworth last year. I swear this isn't true because I woke up damn near everynight from the rumbling below my room.
- objclxt 4y ago
  That’s the tunnel along Mass Ave, which Wigglesworth runs parallel to, rather than going through the yard itself.
sandworm101 4y ago
Lol. Harvard hiring lawyers. Thats like hogwarts bringing in consultant wizards.
- tetris11 4y ago
  Or Death Eaters, as they prefer to be called.
  - loganc2342 4y ago
    The wizards or the lawyers?
- CobrastanJorji 4y ago
  Harvard has three kinds of law people. First, it has its own lawyers. They're fine, but they're mostly not the court kind of lawyers. Second, it has law students. Those aren't lawyers, so you don't want them either. Third, it has law professors, who are generally well known or renowned for past deeds or theoretical legal philosophy, but mostly they're either out of practice, never practiced, or they've got insane (for example, Alan Dershowitz is a professor there). You don't want any of those folks nearby when courtroom stuff needs to happen. Hogwarts has a similar problem, now that I think about it. Hugely powerful wizards defending a school from a tiny number of adversaries, they've got all the time in the world to prepare, and yet they're terrible at it. They build a huge multilayered vault that's bypassed by three unprepared kids. They should've brought in professionals.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

The part about "Harvard is immune to eminent domain" is definitely apocryphal. I'm quite positive the United States doesn't give legal credence to "dusty old letters from King George".

JackFr 4y ago
My father was a real estate appraiser for the New York State Department of Transportation whose job was to appraise land taken under eminent domain. There are plenty of parcels of land whose title is literally a pre-Revolution Crown Grant. That matters not a whit with respect to eminent domain. (OK - maybe not plenty but at least two.)
refurb 4y ago
The US absolutely respects agreements prior to land becoming territory of the United States. Of course, it all depends on the agreement, so I have no idea if the Harvard story is correct. But a good example are the ranchos in California. They were land grants by the Mexican government when it was Mexican territory. When the US acquired California after the Mexican-American war, the agreement was all such land grants were deemed valid going forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > The US absolutely respects agreements prior to land becoming territory of the United States The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo has not been fully followed, even according to the US government. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-04-59 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-04-59
  - refurb 4y ago
    Those claims are about how the original land grants were respected, not if they were respected. That may sound like mincing words, but it's an important distinction.

goodcanadian 4y ago

I'm skeptical. I looked at google maps, and I allow that it may not be perfectly accurate, but the line appears to follow surface roads in the area which allows for cheap and easy (relatively) cut and cover tunnels. Further, if the line already existed to Harvard Square, there is no reasonable alignment that would take an extension under Harvard yard. The line turns because the road turns and that is the direction they wanted to go. They also had to deal with the pre-existing station and tracks. It was probably determined to be the best option as trains would already be stopping at the station, anyway.

ghaff 4y ago
Yeah, it seems to basically follow Mass Ave from Harvard to Porter which makes perfect sense. (There's some one-way funkiness on the surface street--Boston/Cambridge, what can you say?) But given that the Hardware Square station existed at the time of the Red Line extension, I'm not sure why you would go under Harvard Yard. I'm willing to believe that Harvard Square station could have been located differently in a way that didn't require such a dogleg approaching Harvard Yard but that decision happened a very long time ago.

yucky 4y ago

I always heard that this was so you could park your car in Harvard yard.

glompers 4y ago
The walkways there _are_ paved in easy-to-level asphalt rather than, you know, cobblestones