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I really dislike the whole cynical "all politicians are thieves" vibe going on in here. Yes, this politician was probably for sale, she took money from dubious

by akie 4y ago

I really dislike the whole cynical "all politicians are thieves" vibe going on in here. Yes, this politician was probably for sale, she took money from dubious sources, AND SHE WAS ARRESTED. I think that's fantastic, because it shows that even the powerful can be held to account. This is most certainly not the case everywhere.

BogdanPetre 4y ago
tip of the iceberg...
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  Snowy peak :)
xwolfi 4y ago
Now I agree with you, but what about all the arrests of politicians in China ... some are revenge by other corrupts, some are truly about justice... There are places were all is corrupt, and it can happen to your country too :)
- duxup 4y ago
  Separation of powers, strong institutions and an independent judiciary is very important. We’ve seen that in the US where judges appointed by a politician will/can rule against them in court cases.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Separation of powers sounds like a joke when all modern liberal democracies are run by parties, not individual persons. It’s, for example, common for senators to become presidents in the US. Yeah, a judge can rule against a politician that appointed them, but (1) did they rule against their party? (2) is it such a high bar that shows an expected level of separation of powers?
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > It’s, for example, common for senators to become presidents in the US. Yes, it helps to know the system and the people in it. You’ll find that businesses, charities, and pretty much any other organization pick CEOs in a similar fashion.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >We’ve seen that in the US where judges appointed by a politician will/can rule against them in court cases. Yes. The cases where they have more to gain for their career and status by not aligning with the politician, or where the politician is seen as dead weight they cannot benefit from anymore...
    - duxup 4y ago
      I don’t see any evidence of that. Plenty of judges rule unpopular rulings without any consequences based on the law (as it should be).
      - coldtea 4y ago
        Popular to the masses and popular to their particular target demographics and/or patrons are a totally different matter altogether...
ErikVandeWater 4y ago
How is being arrested sufficient to say she is held to account? She needs to be sentenced to a fair punishment first. And then she needs to serve the complete sentence and return all ill-gotten gains.
- iso1631 4y ago
  First she needs to be found guilty in a court of law, then the needs to be sentenced. Or is that innocent until proven guilty not a thing any more?
Markoff 4y ago
arrested and jailed/convicted are two very different things let me guess this will end up with lengthy process and in the end she won't serve any time plus just because other politicians let her get arrested doesn't mean they are not corrupted too, it can just mean they wanted to get rid off competition (see Xi Jin Ping corruption fight theatre play)
lzaaz 4y ago
routerl 4y ago
I get your point, and I sympathize. But it is absolutely not cynical to assume that for each criminal person (forget politicians) who gets caught and charged, there are almost certainly more who didn't get caught or didn't get charged. It is not cynical to assume that law enforcement has a less than perfect ability to prosecute criminals; it's just realistic. Rather, it is naive to assume otherwise: What process, in any domain, has a 100% success rate? Note: I'm not taking the "all politicians are corrupt" position, just "it is almost certainly true that corrupt politicians are often able to get away with their corruption". So, maybe we're not actually talking about the same thing. Corrupt politicians, it seems, are like cockroaches: if you've confirmed the existence of one, then there are certainly several whose presence is as yet unconfirmed.
- vintermann 4y ago
  It's also probably selective about what you are corrupt for. Being corrupt for Qatar was probably safe, until it wasn't for extremely stupid reasons.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  Yes, but the trick is not not looking. This is a lot better than the corruption being widely known and nothing being done against it (can you guess which country I'm thinking of?). This sends the signal that in Europe, corruption can come back to hurt you.
  - routerl 4y ago
    > This sends the signal that in Europe, corruption can come back to hurt you. Nah, it just creates an in-group ("we know that corrupt politicians can get away with it"), and an out-group ("let's avoid corruption, since we'll get caught"). > the trick is not not looking Unintentional double negative there, I think.
    - cespare 4y ago
      Seems intentional. "The trick is not [ignoring the bad thing]".
notright6 4y ago
hedora 4y ago
- conradfr 4y ago
  She was not singled out, they arrested 11 people and maybe more to come. I get your point, but because some crooks are free doesn't mean they should all be free. It's the same as "why bother with Ukraine when we turn a blind eye on Yemen".
  - hedora 4y ago
    If they are actually cleaning house, great. However, most leadership purges are spearheaded by people even worse than the ones ousted. Perhaps Greece is far less corrupt than most other countries. My take on it is more like "why bother with the LAPD when Rodney King was driving drunk?" Time will tell, but I'm not holding my breath.
- wickedsickeune 4y ago
  There is no racism against the UAB, Qatar etc if those are the gulf states, in Greece at least. Most people don't know anything about them apart from "country with oil and weird clothes". There is a lot of racism against refugees, immigrants, and people from the Balkans. Mostly of you're poor, you're hated.
noncoml 4y ago
Tell me you don’t live in a corrupted country without telling me you don’t live in a corrupted country. Let me guess Scandinavian? You argument is similar to the US argument, not all police is bad. Technically it’s true, but when the percentage of politicians that are corrupted is high enough, for all practical purposes you can consider them all corrupted when looking for a solution to the problem.

by akie 4y ago

BogdanPetre 4y ago

tip of the iceberg...

eurasiantiger 4y ago
Snowy peak :)

xwolfi 4y ago

Now I agree with you, but what about all the arrests of politicians in China ... some are revenge by other corrupts, some are truly about justice... There are places were all is corrupt, and it can happen to your country too :)

duxup 4y ago
Separation of powers, strong institutions and an independent judiciary is very important. We’ve seen that in the US where judges appointed by a politician will/can rule against them in court cases.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  Separation of powers sounds like a joke when all modern liberal democracies are run by parties, not individual persons. It’s, for example, common for senators to become presidents in the US. Yeah, a judge can rule against a politician that appointed them, but (1) did they rule against their party? (2) is it such a high bar that shows an expected level of separation of powers?
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > It’s, for example, common for senators to become presidents in the US. Yes, it helps to know the system and the people in it. You’ll find that businesses, charities, and pretty much any other organization pick CEOs in a similar fashion.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >We’ve seen that in the US where judges appointed by a politician will/can rule against them in court cases. Yes. The cases where they have more to gain for their career and status by not aligning with the politician, or where the politician is seen as dead weight they cannot benefit from anymore...
  - duxup 4y ago
    I don’t see any evidence of that. Plenty of judges rule unpopular rulings without any consequences based on the law (as it should be).
    - coldtea 4y ago
      Popular to the masses and popular to their particular target demographics and/or patrons are a totally different matter altogether...

ErikVandeWater 4y ago

How is being arrested sufficient to say she is held to account? She needs to be sentenced to a fair punishment first. And then she needs to serve the complete sentence and return all ill-gotten gains.

iso1631 4y ago
First she needs to be found guilty in a court of law, then the needs to be sentenced. Or is that innocent until proven guilty not a thing any more?

Markoff 4y ago

arrested and jailed/convicted are two very different things let me guess this will end up with lengthy process and in the end she won't serve any time plus just because other politicians let her get arrested doesn't mean they are not corrupted too, it can just mean they wanted to get rid off competition (see Xi Jin Ping corruption fight theatre play)

lzaaz 4y ago

routerl 4y ago

I get your point, and I sympathize. But it is absolutely not cynical to assume that for each criminal person (forget politicians) who gets caught and charged, there are almost certainly more who didn't get caught or didn't get charged. It is not cynical to assume that law enforcement has a less than perfect ability to prosecute criminals; it's just realistic. Rather, it is naive to assume otherwise: What process, in any domain, has a 100% success rate? Note: I'm not taking the "all politicians are corrupt" position, just "it is almost certainly true that corrupt politicians are often able to get away with their corruption". So, maybe we're not actually talking about the same thing. Corrupt politicians, it seems, are like cockroaches: if you've confirmed the existence of one, then there are certainly several whose presence is as yet unconfirmed.

vintermann 4y ago
It's also probably selective about what you are corrupt for. Being corrupt for Qatar was probably safe, until it wasn't for extremely stupid reasons.
solarkraft 4y ago
Yes, but the trick is not not looking. This is a lot better than the corruption being widely known and nothing being done against it (can you guess which country I'm thinking of?). This sends the signal that in Europe, corruption can come back to hurt you.
- routerl 4y ago
  > This sends the signal that in Europe, corruption can come back to hurt you. Nah, it just creates an in-group ("we know that corrupt politicians can get away with it"), and an out-group ("let's avoid corruption, since we'll get caught"). > the trick is not not looking Unintentional double negative there, I think.
  - cespare 4y ago
    Seems intentional. "The trick is not [ignoring the bad thing]".

notright6 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

conradfr 4y ago
She was not singled out, they arrested 11 people and maybe more to come. I get your point, but because some crooks are free doesn't mean they should all be free. It's the same as "why bother with Ukraine when we turn a blind eye on Yemen".
- hedora 4y ago
  If they are actually cleaning house, great. However, most leadership purges are spearheaded by people even worse than the ones ousted. Perhaps Greece is far less corrupt than most other countries. My take on it is more like "why bother with the LAPD when Rodney King was driving drunk?" Time will tell, but I'm not holding my breath.
wickedsickeune 4y ago
There is no racism against the UAB, Qatar etc if those are the gulf states, in Greece at least. Most people don't know anything about them apart from "country with oil and weird clothes". There is a lot of racism against refugees, immigrants, and people from the Balkans. Mostly of you're poor, you're hated.

noncoml 4y ago

Tell me you don’t live in a corrupted country without telling me you don’t live in a corrupted country. Let me guess Scandinavian? You argument is similar to the US argument, not all police is bad. Technically it’s true, but when the percentage of politicians that are corrupted is high enough, for all practical purposes you can consider them all corrupted when looking for a solution to the problem.