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> One person’s “bullying and harassment” is another person’s “intimate honesty”. There are no easy answers. No. You can be honest with someone about something

> One person’s “bullying and harassment” is another person’s “intimate honesty”. There are no easy answers. No. You can be honest with someone about something without being an asshole. What exactly do you mean here by "intimate honesty"? You should give a concrete example

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
You’re making a very black and white assertion about something that seems quite obvious: that there’s a grey area to communication, especially between people with different expectations, communication styles, etc. I don’t think you’re entitled to an example after being so reductive about the topic.
- isodev 4y ago
  When one is working as part of a team (in a professional context), it’s one’s responsibility to ensure the delivery of one’s message doesn’t “clash” with others in a way that may feel as harassment or bullying. If that’s unclear, most companies introduce etiquette and guidelines on what constitutes acceptable forms of behaviour and communication at the office/during work hours. It’s also a topic one can bring up with their therapist for additional tips and guidelines.
  - josephg 4y ago
    I agree that this is the rule in polite society, and I agree that its a reasonable goal 95% of the time. But its an impossible standard to meet 100% of the time. Alan Watts makes this point - we can only guarantee that we're inoffensive when we're dead. Or when we act like we're dead - taking up no space and sharing no opinions. Walking boldly in the world will necessarily elicit reactions in other people. We don't get to control the reactions other people have to us. If the only thing you're allowed to do when someone hates you is shrink into yourself, then you cannot ever be noteworthy or famous in any way. (Because you'll get haters if you're noteworthy, no matter how lofty your goals are.) You can also swing this argument the other way around. Nobody knows the exact shape of our childhood traumas. Growing up requires that we revisit those places that still hurt in us to be able to heal our wounds. I don't want anyone trying to protect me from that process, because I need to go through that pain in order to grow into the healthiest version of myself. Shying away from telling me something because you're afraid I'll get hurt also blocks any possibility of deeper intimacy. Kim Scott's Radical Candor is another take on this for the workplace. 6 minute video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLBDkz0TwLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLBDkz0TwLM
  - skissane 4y ago
    > When one is working as part of a team (in a professional context), it’s one’s responsibility to ensure the delivery of one’s message doesn’t “clash” with others I think communication involves mutual responsibility, for both sender and receiver. When it goes wrong, sometimes the sender has failed to meet their responsibility, sometimes the receiver, sometimes both, and sometimes it is just one of those regrettable misunderstandings which is neither's fault. > etiquette and guidelines on what constitutes acceptable forms of behaviour and communication It is impossible to craft guidelines which explicitly cover every possible circumstance. Guidelines may reduce the incidence of cross-cultural misunderstandings (although one may be sceptical about how effective they really are in doing that), but they can’t possibly eliminate them. > It’s also a topic one can bring up with their therapist for additional tips and guidelines. I remember my father telling me about how, in the early 1990s, he got a job with a US-based company, and he started going on regular business trips to the US. He was rather struck by how some of his American colleagues would talk at work about having therapists - the way they’d talk about it, it sounded like they just assumed everyone had one (which is how you’ve talked about it here). Judged by the standards of Australian culture, it was rather odd - if someone felt they needed to see a mental health professional, they’d be unlikely to tell random people at work about it, and talking to work colleagues in a way which assumed they did have that need could cause offence. My father didn’t take offence, he was just amused by the strange ways of Americans-but someone else could have.
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I think it’s extremely odd as a younger American. And frankly, I think the reality is that many people agree with the Australian/my perception, but know to just keep it to themselves instead of trying to change the culture. My biggest gripe is that (1) not everyone has easy access to a therapist and (2) it’s not a magic bullet. Additionally, (3) it’s inconsistent with the norm of avoiding personal health topics in professional environments. I guess what I’m saying is that many, many Americans agree with you, even if that doesn’t come across in the corporate or pop culture zeitgeist.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I don't think I've ever pointed out to someone they were being a bully, and they didn't respond with, "Hey, I'm just trying to show you tough love and honesty, it's not my fault you're too much of a wimp to accept it." Conversely I've never found stating my opinion tactlessly or hurtfully to be effective, and the only times I've been able to communicate an uncomfortable truth successfully has been in a blameless and empathetic manner. No one is entitled to an example, but it's a good suggestion to clear up possible miscommunications. Especially if we're talking about complex situations potentially involving cultural clashes.
  - josephg 4y ago
    > the only times I've been able to communicate an uncomfortable truth successfully has been in a blameless and empathetic manner. I think I mostly agree with you, and your comment about bullying sounds like a great example of your point. Mitchell Rosenburg (author of Non-violent Communication) talks about this a lot. He would point out that calling someone a bully is a negative judgemental statement. Who are you to say they're being a bully? Maybe their intent really is to show tough love and honesty. People almost always get defensive when we feel attacked and judged. The decision of whether to feel attacked and judged is made on the receiving end of a statement. The NVC approach would recommend that instead of "you're being a bully", you could say "When you said XX, I feel rejected and small". Its a much more vulnerable statement, but its much more powerful to hear. Hearing "you're a bully" makes me want to put my walls up. Hearing "ouch, hearing that makes me want to cry" will open my heart right up.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      > The NVC approach would recommend that instead of "you're being a bully", you could say "When you said XX, I feel rejected and small". Its a much more vulnerable statement, but its much more powerful to hear. Telling how you feel instead is self-sacrificial as it intuitively feels promoting further bullying and trauma, since these feelings must be what the bully wants. To the bullied saying something like that may feel as digging own grave. But yes, assuming bullying is assuming what goes on in another's head. I can more than identify that mild tease can be an indication of familiarity and rapport. So the best way to stop bullying is from the outside. If you suspect bullying intervene, if it's not obvious right away you don't need to flat out presume bullying takes place but you can engage the participants and get a better picture based on their responses.
- spritefs 4y ago
  I wasn't making a universal claim about all communication, I was just saying it's possible to be honest without being a dick > I don’t think you’re entitled to an example after being so reductive about the topic. Am I the one who's being reductive here, or are you the one who's taking an ambiguous comment, interpreting it in a black and white way, and then posting this hypocritically reductive response here?
deleted 4y ago
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josephg 4y ago
> You should give a concrete example This isn't a perfect example, but - I was at a personal development workshop a couple of weeks ago. One of the participants was expressing a lot of fake positivity. I (and a lot of the other participants) got a bit annoyed by that - it felt to us like he was lying every time he opened his mouth. At dinner he asked for "honest feedback" on why other people didn't like him, and what he could do to be more appreciated by the group. He got what he asked for. Several people told him how they felt when he talked. He got really upset hearing that - saying he was being bullied by the whole group. Something he's experienced a lot of throughout his life. How can you be honest with someone like this without him being able to turn it into an attack? I don't know if you can. The shadow part of him is too clever. Should we have refused to give him the feedback he asked for? The same pattern played out in small ways a few more times over the next few days. Someone would say something in the group which related to him in some way. The next morning he'd try on a versions of the previous day's events in which everyone else's stories were about him. And he was always the victim. In a work setting where people don't have complete information, he'd be a menace. He could turn anything he didn't like into an instance of "bullying and harassment". I don't think he does it on purpose, but that doesn't make it any better. Even weeks after the retreat I'm still thinking about him - I have no idea how I'd deal with someone like that if they were in my life. A soft "believe all victims of harassment" approach would encourage his narcissism. But his pain still seemed real. It felt like I kept having to choose between self abandonment (staying small, lying about my feelings) or risking hurting this guy. I hated it.
- kodah 4y ago
  > How can you be honest with someone like this without him being able to turn it into an attack? The solution is gray manning. Don't react to peoples emotional swings, controversial statements, and throw everything they say to the wind but the nuts and bolts. You don't know this person, you don't need to like them, you just need to exist with them for a bit. Some people from the corporate world I like and become friends; everyone else gets a git clone --depth 1 when I'm around them. --- There are a lot of plausible explanations for his behavior. In some he's a bonafide victim, in others he could have a personality disorder. To you, as a transient existence in his reality and vice versa, none of those matter.
deleted 4y ago
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spritefs 4y ago
I'll add (after reading some responses here), I'm not saying that someone should always be honest, I was just saying it's possible to be frank with someone without being a douche For example, instead of telling someone "this isn't good", tell them "use this technique instead" or "it's better to do it this way because X" I get that there are some people who'll take offense to everything. Those types have to be managed differently and are a headache to deal with. But if you aren't a dick and have a paper trail, there's nothing to worry about

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

You’re making a very black and white assertion about something that seems quite obvious: that there’s a grey area to communication, especially between people with different expectations, communication styles, etc. I don’t think you’re entitled to an example after being so reductive about the topic.

isodev 4y ago
When one is working as part of a team (in a professional context), it’s one’s responsibility to ensure the delivery of one’s message doesn’t “clash” with others in a way that may feel as harassment or bullying. If that’s unclear, most companies introduce etiquette and guidelines on what constitutes acceptable forms of behaviour and communication at the office/during work hours. It’s also a topic one can bring up with their therapist for additional tips and guidelines.
- josephg 4y ago
  I agree that this is the rule in polite society, and I agree that its a reasonable goal 95% of the time. But its an impossible standard to meet 100% of the time. Alan Watts makes this point - we can only guarantee that we're inoffensive when we're dead. Or when we act like we're dead - taking up no space and sharing no opinions. Walking boldly in the world will necessarily elicit reactions in other people. We don't get to control the reactions other people have to us. If the only thing you're allowed to do when someone hates you is shrink into yourself, then you cannot ever be noteworthy or famous in any way. (Because you'll get haters if you're noteworthy, no matter how lofty your goals are.) You can also swing this argument the other way around. Nobody knows the exact shape of our childhood traumas. Growing up requires that we revisit those places that still hurt in us to be able to heal our wounds. I don't want anyone trying to protect me from that process, because I need to go through that pain in order to grow into the healthiest version of myself. Shying away from telling me something because you're afraid I'll get hurt also blocks any possibility of deeper intimacy. Kim Scott's Radical Candor is another take on this for the workplace. 6 minute video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLBDkz0TwLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLBDkz0TwLM
- skissane 4y ago
  > When one is working as part of a team (in a professional context), it’s one’s responsibility to ensure the delivery of one’s message doesn’t “clash” with others I think communication involves mutual responsibility, for both sender and receiver. When it goes wrong, sometimes the sender has failed to meet their responsibility, sometimes the receiver, sometimes both, and sometimes it is just one of those regrettable misunderstandings which is neither's fault. > etiquette and guidelines on what constitutes acceptable forms of behaviour and communication It is impossible to craft guidelines which explicitly cover every possible circumstance. Guidelines may reduce the incidence of cross-cultural misunderstandings (although one may be sceptical about how effective they really are in doing that), but they can’t possibly eliminate them. > It’s also a topic one can bring up with their therapist for additional tips and guidelines. I remember my father telling me about how, in the early 1990s, he got a job with a US-based company, and he started going on regular business trips to the US. He was rather struck by how some of his American colleagues would talk at work about having therapists - the way they’d talk about it, it sounded like they just assumed everyone had one (which is how you’ve talked about it here). Judged by the standards of Australian culture, it was rather odd - if someone felt they needed to see a mental health professional, they’d be unlikely to tell random people at work about it, and talking to work colleagues in a way which assumed they did have that need could cause offence. My father didn’t take offence, he was just amused by the strange ways of Americans-but someone else could have.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I think it’s extremely odd as a younger American. And frankly, I think the reality is that many people agree with the Australian/my perception, but know to just keep it to themselves instead of trying to change the culture. My biggest gripe is that (1) not everyone has easy access to a therapist and (2) it’s not a magic bullet. Additionally, (3) it’s inconsistent with the norm of avoiding personal health topics in professional environments. I guess what I’m saying is that many, many Americans agree with you, even if that doesn’t come across in the corporate or pop culture zeitgeist.
maxbond 4y ago
I don't think I've ever pointed out to someone they were being a bully, and they didn't respond with, "Hey, I'm just trying to show you tough love and honesty, it's not my fault you're too much of a wimp to accept it." Conversely I've never found stating my opinion tactlessly or hurtfully to be effective, and the only times I've been able to communicate an uncomfortable truth successfully has been in a blameless and empathetic manner. No one is entitled to an example, but it's a good suggestion to clear up possible miscommunications. Especially if we're talking about complex situations potentially involving cultural clashes.
- josephg 4y ago
  > the only times I've been able to communicate an uncomfortable truth successfully has been in a blameless and empathetic manner. I think I mostly agree with you, and your comment about bullying sounds like a great example of your point. Mitchell Rosenburg (author of Non-violent Communication) talks about this a lot. He would point out that calling someone a bully is a negative judgemental statement. Who are you to say they're being a bully? Maybe their intent really is to show tough love and honesty. People almost always get defensive when we feel attacked and judged. The decision of whether to feel attacked and judged is made on the receiving end of a statement. The NVC approach would recommend that instead of "you're being a bully", you could say "When you said XX, I feel rejected and small". Its a much more vulnerable statement, but its much more powerful to hear. Hearing "you're a bully" makes me want to put my walls up. Hearing "ouch, hearing that makes me want to cry" will open my heart right up.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    > The NVC approach would recommend that instead of "you're being a bully", you could say "When you said XX, I feel rejected and small". Its a much more vulnerable statement, but its much more powerful to hear. Telling how you feel instead is self-sacrificial as it intuitively feels promoting further bullying and trauma, since these feelings must be what the bully wants. To the bullied saying something like that may feel as digging own grave. But yes, assuming bullying is assuming what goes on in another's head. I can more than identify that mild tease can be an indication of familiarity and rapport. So the best way to stop bullying is from the outside. If you suspect bullying intervene, if it's not obvious right away you don't need to flat out presume bullying takes place but you can engage the participants and get a better picture based on their responses.
spritefs 4y ago
I wasn't making a universal claim about all communication, I was just saying it's possible to be honest without being a dick > I don’t think you’re entitled to an example after being so reductive about the topic. Am I the one who's being reductive here, or are you the one who's taking an ambiguous comment, interpreting it in a black and white way, and then posting this hypocritically reductive response here?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

josephg 4y ago

> You should give a concrete example This isn't a perfect example, but - I was at a personal development workshop a couple of weeks ago. One of the participants was expressing a lot of fake positivity. I (and a lot of the other participants) got a bit annoyed by that - it felt to us like he was lying every time he opened his mouth. At dinner he asked for "honest feedback" on why other people didn't like him, and what he could do to be more appreciated by the group. He got what he asked for. Several people told him how they felt when he talked. He got really upset hearing that - saying he was being bullied by the whole group. Something he's experienced a lot of throughout his life. How can you be honest with someone like this without him being able to turn it into an attack? I don't know if you can. The shadow part of him is too clever. Should we have refused to give him the feedback he asked for? The same pattern played out in small ways a few more times over the next few days. Someone would say something in the group which related to him in some way. The next morning he'd try on a versions of the previous day's events in which everyone else's stories were about him. And he was always the victim. In a work setting where people don't have complete information, he'd be a menace. He could turn anything he didn't like into an instance of "bullying and harassment". I don't think he does it on purpose, but that doesn't make it any better. Even weeks after the retreat I'm still thinking about him - I have no idea how I'd deal with someone like that if they were in my life. A soft "believe all victims of harassment" approach would encourage his narcissism. But his pain still seemed real. It felt like I kept having to choose between self abandonment (staying small, lying about my feelings) or risking hurting this guy. I hated it.

kodah 4y ago
> How can you be honest with someone like this without him being able to turn it into an attack? The solution is gray manning. Don't react to peoples emotional swings, controversial statements, and throw everything they say to the wind but the nuts and bolts. You don't know this person, you don't need to like them, you just need to exist with them for a bit. Some people from the corporate world I like and become friends; everyone else gets a git clone --depth 1 when I'm around them. --- There are a lot of plausible explanations for his behavior. In some he's a bonafide victim, in others he could have a personality disorder. To you, as a transient existence in his reality and vice versa, none of those matter.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

spritefs 4y ago

I'll add (after reading some responses here), I'm not saying that someone should always be honest, I was just saying it's possible to be frank with someone without being a douche For example, instead of telling someone "this isn't good", tell them "use this technique instead" or "it's better to do it this way because X" I get that there are some people who'll take offense to everything. Those types have to be managed differently and are a headache to deal with. But if you aren't a dick and have a paper trail, there's nothing to worry about