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Covered parking and rooftop make so much more sense though. Why do we want to cover more of the natural world, our only world, with more of our silicate-derived

Covered parking and rooftop make so much more sense though. Why do we want to cover more of the natural world, our only world, with more of our silicate-derived trash? Parking and rooftop ensure the structural protection of your cabling, while at the same time optimizing the positioning of your servicing ports. Slightly elevated rooftop solar can also significantly reduce the a/c bill of a structure (especially smaller houses in sunny environments) and parking helps protect the paint of cars.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
Because the usa is huge and full of low value arid desert near areas that need lots of power. In short, economics of the sun God
- maxnevermind 4y ago
  Can it be delivered from the desert without rising the total cost to high?
  - fbdab103 4y ago
    High voltage transmission losses can be low, <3%. I have seen previous reports that 5-7% of all electricity is lost to transmission. For a backbone (highly maintained) electrical network, I think that would be fairly marginal cost vs everything else involved in the calculation.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      There are plenty of cities near the desert to suck up the power without ultra high power transmission. Like phoenix, Vegas, LA…I’m guessing all those opportunities will be soaked up before they start putting them in them in the middle of nowhere.
cortesoft 4y ago
There is SO MUCH empty land out in deserts. We aren't going to run out of space.
- justinator 4y ago
  Deserts ≠ wastelands. They're home to their own ecosystems.
  - imoverclocked 4y ago
    Yes, they are also very fragile and take a long time to recover. I think solar panels done right could actually help a desert though. Providing shade can allow some plants to thrive but most solar developers aren’t thinking about the ecology of a region.
    - lazide 4y ago
      If you’re providing massive amounts of new shade in an ecosystem that normally doesn’t get it, that is going to change things.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Large installations usually come with mandatory ecological impact assessment requirements.
      - imoverclocked 4y ago
        How many of these mandatory impact assessments are identifying ways of improving the ecosystem with their installation? Obviously I don’t mean by by displacing carbon.
  - chrisbaker98 4y ago
    From a purely selfish human point of view, how important are desert ecosystems to the overall health of the planet and the planet's ability to support human life? I feel like sacrificing the deserts to save the rainforests is a trade worth making - but is such a trade even possible, or is it not that simple?
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Because on the ground you have have 5 hecrates of solar panels accessible by any joe for repairs and inspection, the same panels on the roof require specialists to climb and inspect, and they are now spread across roofs of 10 different buildings, making maintenance a nightmare
- mgerdts 4y ago
  The typical Home Depot store is 105,000 sq feet, which is about 1 hectare. These tend to exist in the same general area as other big box stores and similar huge flat roofed buildings. Those are much closer to where a bunch of electricity is used than the undeveloped or farm land just outside of the burbs. Add in covered parking lots and distributed batteries (dedicated batteries, cars, etc.) and I bet that we would reduce the need for building even more high voltage lines across the countryside. We should be looking for ways to generate and store electricity close to where it is needed where we have already destroyed nature.
  - midasuni 4y ago
    My company has a warehouse in west london, we looked at putting solar on the roof, but it’s not strong enough. You can’t simply put solar on a roof
    - 2ICofafireteam 4y ago
      Why? What actually killed it? Do you mean that you can't meet 100% of your demands, or it can't be done for some other reason? You could reduce, but not eliminate, the demand for purchased energy. Would that be unacceptable? Is there not a net metering programme there? For me the big deal is usually demonstrating payback. I'm in British Columbia and my solar experience is only with single family homes; on and off grid. There was no big cost analysis with off grid homes. You need power, or you don't. It's just another category in the budget and the cost decisions are about balancing desires and cost. With grid-connected homes, we don't even try to sell it now. Nearly all our customers have mortgages to pay for their new house and factoring in the interest paid makes it much less attractive. A few years ago, low interest rates and high energy costs made it an easier sale. If you were in the position of having money in the bank, you could get a better return on that money by upgrading your home to save energy. Of course it could only scale as large as the cost of improvements. Even then, a lot of homeowners didn't intend to own the home long enough to realize the returns, and I don't think small solar systems improve resale value. The feeling in the office is that if you're planning to resell, the money is better spent on the kitchen.
Mildlypolite 4y ago
Yes the first step should be to cover every rooftop and parking. I think a law exist in some states that new construction has to have solar panels on. The law should be passed everywhere. And it's just the first step.
- chasd00 4y ago
  government is like XML, if it doesn't work just use more.
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
Okay but what if we cover all the roofs with rooftop gardens and cover all of the ground with solar?
- dieortin 4y ago
  Rooftop gardens are not nature, so it’s the same thing
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    It was meant to be a silly comment, though normally I’d have added some emoji to make that clearer.
jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
This can make sense to do, but it ends up being a lot less cost effective than utility scale solar. A friend of mine lives off grid in Mexico, and he got double duty out of his solar array by making it a big carport and workshop area. So yeah that totally works. But, if you're going to invest $X in solar, it's better to spend it on utility scale stuff than even commercial versions of covering parking lots. This is because the utility scale operation better amortizes the equipment needed to tie into the grid, as well as operationally will keep the panels clean and working at peak efficiency.
j-bos 4y ago
If land cover is the issue, isn't this a great use case for the airship tech that refuses to die? No land issues, no roof issues, relatively clean area, movable according to weather.. It would be crazy expensive, but airships are keep getting invested in anyway, so why not try adding solar?

calvinmorrison 4y ago

Because the usa is huge and full of low value arid desert near areas that need lots of power. In short, economics of the sun God

maxnevermind 4y ago
Can it be delivered from the desert without rising the total cost to high?
- fbdab103 4y ago
  High voltage transmission losses can be low, <3%. I have seen previous reports that 5-7% of all electricity is lost to transmission. For a backbone (highly maintained) electrical network, I think that would be fairly marginal cost vs everything else involved in the calculation.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    There are plenty of cities near the desert to suck up the power without ultra high power transmission. Like phoenix, Vegas, LA…I’m guessing all those opportunities will be soaked up before they start putting them in them in the middle of nowhere.

cortesoft 4y ago

There is SO MUCH empty land out in deserts. We aren't going to run out of space.

justinator 4y ago
Deserts ≠ wastelands. They're home to their own ecosystems.
- imoverclocked 4y ago
  Yes, they are also very fragile and take a long time to recover. I think solar panels done right could actually help a desert though. Providing shade can allow some plants to thrive but most solar developers aren’t thinking about the ecology of a region.
  - lazide 4y ago
    If you’re providing massive amounts of new shade in an ecosystem that normally doesn’t get it, that is going to change things.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Large installations usually come with mandatory ecological impact assessment requirements.
    - imoverclocked 4y ago
      How many of these mandatory impact assessments are identifying ways of improving the ecosystem with their installation? Obviously I don’t mean by by displacing carbon.
- chrisbaker98 4y ago
  From a purely selfish human point of view, how important are desert ecosystems to the overall health of the planet and the planet's ability to support human life? I feel like sacrificing the deserts to save the rainforests is a trade worth making - but is such a trade even possible, or is it not that simple?

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

Because on the ground you have have 5 hecrates of solar panels accessible by any joe for repairs and inspection, the same panels on the roof require specialists to climb and inspect, and they are now spread across roofs of 10 different buildings, making maintenance a nightmare

mgerdts 4y ago
The typical Home Depot store is 105,000 sq feet, which is about 1 hectare. These tend to exist in the same general area as other big box stores and similar huge flat roofed buildings. Those are much closer to where a bunch of electricity is used than the undeveloped or farm land just outside of the burbs. Add in covered parking lots and distributed batteries (dedicated batteries, cars, etc.) and I bet that we would reduce the need for building even more high voltage lines across the countryside. We should be looking for ways to generate and store electricity close to where it is needed where we have already destroyed nature.
- midasuni 4y ago
  My company has a warehouse in west london, we looked at putting solar on the roof, but it’s not strong enough. You can’t simply put solar on a roof
  - 2ICofafireteam 4y ago
    Why? What actually killed it? Do you mean that you can't meet 100% of your demands, or it can't be done for some other reason? You could reduce, but not eliminate, the demand for purchased energy. Would that be unacceptable? Is there not a net metering programme there? For me the big deal is usually demonstrating payback. I'm in British Columbia and my solar experience is only with single family homes; on and off grid. There was no big cost analysis with off grid homes. You need power, or you don't. It's just another category in the budget and the cost decisions are about balancing desires and cost. With grid-connected homes, we don't even try to sell it now. Nearly all our customers have mortgages to pay for their new house and factoring in the interest paid makes it much less attractive. A few years ago, low interest rates and high energy costs made it an easier sale. If you were in the position of having money in the bank, you could get a better return on that money by upgrading your home to save energy. Of course it could only scale as large as the cost of improvements. Even then, a lot of homeowners didn't intend to own the home long enough to realize the returns, and I don't think small solar systems improve resale value. The feeling in the office is that if you're planning to resell, the money is better spent on the kitchen.

Mildlypolite 4y ago

Yes the first step should be to cover every rooftop and parking. I think a law exist in some states that new construction has to have solar panels on. The law should be passed everywhere. And it's just the first step.

chasd00 4y ago
government is like XML, if it doesn't work just use more.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

Okay but what if we cover all the roofs with rooftop gardens and cover all of the ground with solar?

dieortin 4y ago
Rooftop gardens are not nature, so it’s the same thing
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  It was meant to be a silly comment, though normally I’d have added some emoji to make that clearer.

jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago

This can make sense to do, but it ends up being a lot less cost effective than utility scale solar. A friend of mine lives off grid in Mexico, and he got double duty out of his solar array by making it a big carport and workshop area. So yeah that totally works. But, if you're going to invest $X in solar, it's better to spend it on utility scale stuff than even commercial versions of covering parking lots. This is because the utility scale operation better amortizes the equipment needed to tie into the grid, as well as operationally will keep the panels clean and working at peak efficiency.

j-bos 4y ago

If land cover is the issue, isn't this a great use case for the airship tech that refuses to die? No land issues, no roof issues, relatively clean area, movable according to weather.. It would be crazy expensive, but airships are keep getting invested in anyway, so why not try adding solar?