5 ms·

The reason for the touchscreens is simple... compared to all the design and manufacturing needed for a good console of buttons, it's cheap just to slap in an id

The reason for the touchscreens is simple... compared to all the design and manufacturing needed for a good console of buttons, it's cheap just to slap in an identical tablet unit in every car model. From the very start it was just Tesla penny-pinching.

Kaibeezy 4y ago
This is an 80/20 problem if there ever was one, maybe even 95/5. In my car I really want the audio volume, heater fan speed, and wiper control to be tactile. But beyond that, I can probably deal, and even the heater fan speed might be negotiable. In my 2003 car, the fan speed is buttons, oh well. In my 2013 it’s a paddle and I like it a lot better. The newer car also has a knob for navigating the touchscreen, which isn’t perfect but is way better than touching a screen. The older car has no touchscreen and I like that better. I didn’t rtfa because it’s a Twitter thread, and I didn’t see any comments on this in the 250 or so below. What else really needs to be a tactile control on a truck? (Edited for clarification. I said “touch-based” when I should have used “tactile”.)
- reneherse 4y ago
  Could you please explain more about why you would prefer those specific controls to be touch based? Is it to have the possibility of finer-grained adjustment? For me, wipers and audio volume are controls I want to be able to access immediately and without taking my eyes off the road, as they sometimes need to be used with urgency. (For example, turning down high volume to reduce distraction or activating wipers to clear a sudden downpour.)
  - bun_at_work 4y ago
    It's so you don't have to look at them to use them while driving. Screens offer no tactile feedback that guides you, you have to look, which is dangerous.
    - Kaibeezy 4y ago
      Right, tactile was the word I should have used.
  - throwaway54_56 4y ago
    I think "touch based" is used here to mean knobs and buttons, not a touch screen.
  - thesh4d0w 4y ago
    I think his wording is off, and he means touch based as in tactile feedback. Not touch as in a touch screen.
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    or when another vechicle splashes you with a mass of mud or snow from a puddle or slush pile from plowing, or snow blows off the top of another vehicle etc, suddenly blind, at highway speeds with other vehicles, maybe with no barrier seperating the oncoming lanes, and your wipers require navigating menus on a tablet??? Even non-critical controls still need to be tactile, and not change from one day to the next, don't move location or change behavior from updates, because even if you don't need them in a hurry to avoid crashing, you still can't be hunting around in a multipurpose interface while driving just to change which direction the air vents point. Not a hyperbolic example, the Rivian actually has that.
    - ericd 4y ago
      Teslas have a button on the stalk to run the wipers, and you can use voice commands, is there a company that requires menu nav?
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  I get anxious even thinking about volume touch control. Got a higher pulse and everything :-D
  - robotresearcher 4y ago
    Even Tesla knows this is a bad idea. They have a volume dial on the steering wheel, for your thumb.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  I think tactile controls should be those things you would want to change while driving: * Climate control heating/ac/defroster temp up/down fans higher/lower * windows up/down * signal left/right * windshield wipers * volume up/down * audio basics (next track/previous track) This allows you to keep your eyes on the road and rely on muscle memory to make the changes quickly. It's an important aspect of auto safety. Things like gps route selection, loading music into vehicle or configuring playlists can be done with touchscreens as these are complex tasks that are unlikely to be done while driving.
  - Kaibeezy 4y ago
    That’s a tidy list. Thanks. NO2 boost? ;) Do trucks have additional tasks?
    - UI_at_80x24 4y ago
      He's a basic switch and gauge cluster: https://weaverauctions.com/assets/auction/105/34610-9.jpg https://weaverauctions.com/assets/auction/105/34610-9.jpg
anon84873628 4y ago
It seems they could have a set of programmable buttons with LED surface, as I've seen in computer keyboards for years. As sibling comment points out this is an 80/20 situation. As much as I enjoyed my recent first time experience driving a Tesla, the screen controls frustrated me immensely. I guess they expect you will be talking to the car to make changes soon anyway, but we all know that doesn't work great either. Edit: not to imply you were defending the choice. I can see why it is understandable when trying to iterate fast.
- imtringued 4y ago
  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7GYU-wedo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7GYU-wedo
- slotrans 4y ago
  My 2013 BMW has 8 physical buttons that can be easily programmed to do whatever I want. It's awesome. Unfortunately this feature has been deleted from the newest models...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
slg 4y ago
To expand on that, it is because Tesla fundamentally approaches design like a tech company instead of a manufacturing company. For example, you see this with how they make changes to their cars. They don't have any real model year. Any car of one model can be slightly different from others of the same model from the same year. They could also be nearly identical to once produced two years earlier. It all depends. They just make changes to them whenever they feel like making a change. The tablets are there for the same reason. Instead of spending years fine-tuning a dashboard design through research, they can throw a tablet in there and release whatever software they currently have. They will get feedback from people like this Twitter user telling them they have it all wrong, then they iterate and release a software update. Maybe that process eventually gets them into a better place like it often does for tech companies, but the bigger problem is that this approach completely fails when it comes to their other design choices. You can't push out a software update to change the angle of the windshield. And this lack of focus on the initial design is what leads to making the bad choices highlighted in that thread.
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
Physical buttons are far harder to produce and, once made, are set in stone until the car is recycled. Touch controls can be reprogrammed, updated, improved, etc, mixed with voice input, etc. Far more possibilities for improvement.
- Hallucinaut 4y ago
  if only someone could invent a device with physical buttons that could connect to a device like a tablet or other computer.
- assttoasstmgr 4y ago
  Who said physical buttons cannot be mixed with voice input? Most physical buttons these days are just an interface to the CAN bus, where the function is performed (in software) in the BCM and can easily interface with the voice module. "Improved" is an interesting term. How much improvement can you make to climate control buttons? Their function in most vehicles has not changed in 30 years and are largely the same aside from styling. I feel like we just had this conversation two days ago, with the Amazon driver that has to use a touchscreen to open the cargo door in his new EV delivery van. Another ridiculous design courtesy of SV. Maybe the Juicero engineers found a new life at the EV manufacturers.
- giantrobot 4y ago
  That's ridiculous. Multi-function displays/inputs have been a thing for decades. A physical button does not need to map to one and only one function. Just like MFDs in aircraft, physical buttons in a car display can perform different tasks depending on the mode of the display. I've had several car head units over the years with multi-function buttons. Touch screens in cars are shit. Not only is there no tactile feedback but you can't place your finger on a button before pressing it like you can a physical button. To touchscreens a touch is a press so you better hope you touched the screen in the right place and your finger didn't move around because of a bump in the road.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    When the original iphone premiered, a lot of experts were saying it'll be a failure because it lacks physical controls and it makes calling while driving impossible. Fast forward to now, even Android phones have lost all physical buttons for home/back/menu and now it is all just touch screens. This approach allowed changing button-controlled interface to gesture-controlled. So touch screens might be shit, you just don't need to touch them while driving.
rsync 4y ago
"From the very start it was just Tesla penny-pinching." I don't think so. I think it was worse, and indicates a deeper (and more depressing) inadequacy: I think Tesla put the big screen (17" ?) in the first Model S as a signifier of high technology and modernity. So far, so good ... Now, however, as the Tesla itself came to signify the steps forward to an electric car future and modernity in general, designers of other cars copycatted the Tesla so as to evoke the same sentiment. Meanwhile, actual interior design of automobiles has regressed significantly - and very often, dangerously - and we have one, and probably two entire generations of vehicle models to get through before it gets fixed. In the meantime, get used to monstrosities like this: https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-7-series-theater-screen-12.jpg https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-7-ser... ... and if that wasn't bad enough: https://media.wired.com/photos/625f4ef8536da34b19a67a72/master/w_1600,c_limit/BMW-i7-Interior-2-Gear.png https://media.wired.com/photos/625f4ef8536da34b19a67a72/mast... These designers are clowns. They should be ridiculed. Screens are a poverty.
- dr-detroit 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  I drive old vehicles, but a few years ago I got the itch and walked into a Toyota dealership. When I was told they don't offer vehicles without the screen I walked out and have basically refused to purchase anything with such a screen. I've driven a few rentals with them and yes, they're not the most terrible thing ever, but they definitely are inferior to not having them. I really hope what you're saying will come to pass and we'll get rid of them or have a better version of their functionality because they are so obviously unsafe it's nuts to me they were ever put in. I think Honda announced they would be getting rid of them, if I were to buy a new vehicle today it would most likely be them for that reason alone, despite me being loyal to Toyota up to this point (I just trust their vehicles).
lambdasquirrel 4y ago
To be fair, it seems that all the other manufacturers have decided to join in on that penny-pinching. :(

Kaibeezy 4y ago

This is an 80/20 problem if there ever was one, maybe even 95/5. In my car I really want the audio volume, heater fan speed, and wiper control to be tactile. But beyond that, I can probably deal, and even the heater fan speed might be negotiable. In my 2003 car, the fan speed is buttons, oh well. In my 2013 it’s a paddle and I like it a lot better. The newer car also has a knob for navigating the touchscreen, which isn’t perfect but is way better than touching a screen. The older car has no touchscreen and I like that better. I didn’t rtfa because it’s a Twitter thread, and I didn’t see any comments on this in the 250 or so below. What else really needs to be a tactile control on a truck? (Edited for clarification. I said “touch-based” when I should have used “tactile”.)

reneherse 4y ago
Could you please explain more about why you would prefer those specific controls to be touch based? Is it to have the possibility of finer-grained adjustment? For me, wipers and audio volume are controls I want to be able to access immediately and without taking my eyes off the road, as they sometimes need to be used with urgency. (For example, turning down high volume to reduce distraction or activating wipers to clear a sudden downpour.)
- bun_at_work 4y ago
  It's so you don't have to look at them to use them while driving. Screens offer no tactile feedback that guides you, you have to look, which is dangerous.
  - Kaibeezy 4y ago
    Right, tactile was the word I should have used.
- throwaway54_56 4y ago
  I think "touch based" is used here to mean knobs and buttons, not a touch screen.
- thesh4d0w 4y ago
  I think his wording is off, and he means touch based as in tactile feedback. Not touch as in a touch screen.
- Brian_K_White 4y ago
  or when another vechicle splashes you with a mass of mud or snow from a puddle or slush pile from plowing, or snow blows off the top of another vehicle etc, suddenly blind, at highway speeds with other vehicles, maybe with no barrier seperating the oncoming lanes, and your wipers require navigating menus on a tablet??? Even non-critical controls still need to be tactile, and not change from one day to the next, don't move location or change behavior from updates, because even if you don't need them in a hurry to avoid crashing, you still can't be hunting around in a multipurpose interface while driving just to change which direction the air vents point. Not a hyperbolic example, the Rivian actually has that.
  - ericd 4y ago
    Teslas have a button on the stalk to run the wipers, and you can use voice commands, is there a company that requires menu nav?
actionfromafar 4y ago
I get anxious even thinking about volume touch control. Got a higher pulse and everything :-D
- robotresearcher 4y ago
  Even Tesla knows this is a bad idea. They have a volume dial on the steering wheel, for your thumb.
rsj_hn 4y ago
I think tactile controls should be those things you would want to change while driving: * Climate control heating/ac/defroster temp up/down fans higher/lower * windows up/down * signal left/right * windshield wipers * volume up/down * audio basics (next track/previous track) This allows you to keep your eyes on the road and rely on muscle memory to make the changes quickly. It's an important aspect of auto safety. Things like gps route selection, loading music into vehicle or configuring playlists can be done with touchscreens as these are complex tasks that are unlikely to be done while driving.
- Kaibeezy 4y ago
  That’s a tidy list. Thanks. NO2 boost? ;) Do trucks have additional tasks?
  - UI_at_80x24 4y ago
    He's a basic switch and gauge cluster: https://weaverauctions.com/assets/auction/105/34610-9.jpg https://weaverauctions.com/assets/auction/105/34610-9.jpg

anon84873628 4y ago

It seems they could have a set of programmable buttons with LED surface, as I've seen in computer keyboards for years. As sibling comment points out this is an 80/20 situation. As much as I enjoyed my recent first time experience driving a Tesla, the screen controls frustrated me immensely. I guess they expect you will be talking to the car to make changes soon anyway, but we all know that doesn't work great either. Edit: not to imply you were defending the choice. I can see why it is understandable when trying to iterate fast.

imtringued 4y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7GYU-wedo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7GYU-wedo
slotrans 4y ago
My 2013 BMW has 8 physical buttons that can be easily programmed to do whatever I want. It's awesome. Unfortunately this feature has been deleted from the newest models...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

slg 4y ago

To expand on that, it is because Tesla fundamentally approaches design like a tech company instead of a manufacturing company. For example, you see this with how they make changes to their cars. They don't have any real model year. Any car of one model can be slightly different from others of the same model from the same year. They could also be nearly identical to once produced two years earlier. It all depends. They just make changes to them whenever they feel like making a change. The tablets are there for the same reason. Instead of spending years fine-tuning a dashboard design through research, they can throw a tablet in there and release whatever software they currently have. They will get feedback from people like this Twitter user telling them they have it all wrong, then they iterate and release a software update. Maybe that process eventually gets them into a better place like it often does for tech companies, but the bigger problem is that this approach completely fails when it comes to their other design choices. You can't push out a software update to change the angle of the windshield. And this lack of focus on the initial design is what leads to making the bad choices highlighted in that thread.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

Physical buttons are far harder to produce and, once made, are set in stone until the car is recycled. Touch controls can be reprogrammed, updated, improved, etc, mixed with voice input, etc. Far more possibilities for improvement.

Hallucinaut 4y ago
if only someone could invent a device with physical buttons that could connect to a device like a tablet or other computer.
assttoasstmgr 4y ago
Who said physical buttons cannot be mixed with voice input? Most physical buttons these days are just an interface to the CAN bus, where the function is performed (in software) in the BCM and can easily interface with the voice module. "Improved" is an interesting term. How much improvement can you make to climate control buttons? Their function in most vehicles has not changed in 30 years and are largely the same aside from styling. I feel like we just had this conversation two days ago, with the Amazon driver that has to use a touchscreen to open the cargo door in his new EV delivery van. Another ridiculous design courtesy of SV. Maybe the Juicero engineers found a new life at the EV manufacturers.
giantrobot 4y ago
That's ridiculous. Multi-function displays/inputs have been a thing for decades. A physical button does not need to map to one and only one function. Just like MFDs in aircraft, physical buttons in a car display can perform different tasks depending on the mode of the display. I've had several car head units over the years with multi-function buttons. Touch screens in cars are shit. Not only is there no tactile feedback but you can't place your finger on a button before pressing it like you can a physical button. To touchscreens a touch is a press so you better hope you touched the screen in the right place and your finger didn't move around because of a bump in the road.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  When the original iphone premiered, a lot of experts were saying it'll be a failure because it lacks physical controls and it makes calling while driving impossible. Fast forward to now, even Android phones have lost all physical buttons for home/back/menu and now it is all just touch screens. This approach allowed changing button-controlled interface to gesture-controlled. So touch screens might be shit, you just don't need to touch them while driving.

rsync 4y ago

"From the very start it was just Tesla penny-pinching." I don't think so. I think it was worse, and indicates a deeper (and more depressing) inadequacy: I think Tesla put the big screen (17" ?) in the first Model S as a signifier of high technology and modernity. So far, so good ... Now, however, as the Tesla itself came to signify the steps forward to an electric car future and modernity in general, designers of other cars copycatted the Tesla so as to evoke the same sentiment. Meanwhile, actual interior design of automobiles has regressed significantly - and very often, dangerously - and we have one, and probably two entire generations of vehicle models to get through before it gets fixed. In the meantime, get used to monstrosities like this: https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-7-series-theater-screen-12.jpg https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-7-ser... ... and if that wasn't bad enough: https://media.wired.com/photos/625f4ef8536da34b19a67a72/master/w_1600,c_limit/BMW-i7-Interior-2-Gear.png https://media.wired.com/photos/625f4ef8536da34b19a67a72/mast... These designers are clowns. They should be ridiculed. Screens are a poverty.

dr-detroit 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I drive old vehicles, but a few years ago I got the itch and walked into a Toyota dealership. When I was told they don't offer vehicles without the screen I walked out and have basically refused to purchase anything with such a screen. I've driven a few rentals with them and yes, they're not the most terrible thing ever, but they definitely are inferior to not having them. I really hope what you're saying will come to pass and we'll get rid of them or have a better version of their functionality because they are so obviously unsafe it's nuts to me they were ever put in. I think Honda announced they would be getting rid of them, if I were to buy a new vehicle today it would most likely be them for that reason alone, despite me being loyal to Toyota up to this point (I just trust their vehicles).

lambdasquirrel 4y ago

To be fair, it seems that all the other manufacturers have decided to join in on that penny-pinching. :(