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Shareholder value is just the latest politically correct justification. Our society used to be based on concepts like honor. Honor was something you had to ea

Shareholder value is just the latest politically correct justification. Our society used to be based on concepts like honor. Honor was something you had to earn and something you could lose. To maintain your honor you had to demonstrate certain qualities: truthfulness, earnestness, fairness, politeness, genuine service toward shared superordinate goals (e.g. the country, humanity, the community). At some point, our society decided that lying is no longer dihonorable as long as you are doing it to maximize shareholder value or to sell your product. We no longer publically shame and dishonor those caught in bald-faced lies. Inordinately selfish people always justify their behaviour using socially acceptable statements. What has changed is that our society now lets them get away with it. ANY lies are now OK as long as they say "I was maximizing shareholder value." They will not be socially ostracized, will not be publicly shamed, and often will not even be criticized. People will, in fact, apologize for them. People see Wall Street crash-creators testifying at Congress answering "I do not recall" to 100% of the questions. Instead of dishonoring those liars as the liars that they obviously are... our society just does nothing. It's okay that they lied. It's just business you know. We expect our business leaders to be dishonorable. "It's not the CEOs fault that he knowingly polluted the entire river for 20 years. He was just maximizing shareholder value, discharging his fiduciary duty, we can't hold him personally responsible. It is wrong to shame him and his family, it is wrong to ostracize him from decent company, it is wrong to even criticize him publicly in the newspapers." Either this mentality changes in a hurry, or the entire country is going to go the way of Detroit.

beagle3 15y ago
> Our society used to be based on concepts like honor. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Society was never based on honor; it was always about worshiping those who succeeded, regardless of how bad they had been, as long as they did some good at some point. see, e.g. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon & Gates in recent times, and basically all fondly remembered kings and barons in earlier times. Society adapts, in part, by giving socially acceptable deeds a normative description and concept. The socially acceptable statements lag the deeds, not lead them. > People see Wall Street crash-creators testifying at Congress answering "I do not recall" to 100% of the questions. Instead of dishonoring those liars "These liars" applies equally well to congress as to those wall street execs (with whom the former are figuratively, "in bed", and have been for the last century or so) Really, the only thing that has changed is ease of access to information. Human greed, actions and norms as reflected by social response, by and large, haven't.
- forensic 15y ago
  It's your type of cynicism that is actually an apologetic for the dishonorable behavior. If you stopped saying "everyone does it" then we could start punishing the dishonorable. It's NOT TRUE that everyone is a liar. Rockefeller and Carnegie were liars, sure, but they had to keep it quiet, they had to buy up newspapers and physically intimate people so their lies would not be exposed, or they would lose face. Our entire legal system is based on the concept of honor. It's a real thing that existed and people took it seriously. Of course people still lied and some people worshipped the powerful, but at least back then people hid their skeletons in the closet. Now people just blatantly lie, openly engage in what would be called bribery at any other point in history, blatantly and proudly sell out the public good for personal profit, engage in the grossest type of war-profiteering, etc. Remember how war profiteering used to be a bad thing? Now it's a fucking virtue. Halliburton is a war-profiteering company! War-profiteers used to be hanged for treason! There was a time in America where if you committed fraud, no matter how "technically legal", you would be lynched. Until dead. And juries would acquit your murderer.
  - HalibetLector 15y ago
    Sources? beagle3 offers concrete examples, you don't. I'd love to be proven wrong here, but I've found nothing that suggests honor was ever valued in the united states and certainly not the way you say it was. Japan, certainly...
    - forensic 15y ago
      "There is no question what the roll of honor in America is. The roll of honor consists of the names of men who have squared their conduct by ideals of duty." - Woodrow T. Wilson Unfortunately the internet is an intellectual ghetto and so there are no good links that describe honour. But cmon you ignorant computer scientists, read a fucking history book. Honor was the most important code of conduct for American aristocrats and lasted until the mid-20th century. If they were publicly dishonoured they could lose everything they cared about. This is why people fought duels to defend their honour. People were willing to die to maintain their honour. http://artofmanliness.com/2010/03/05/man-knowledge-an-affair-of-honor-the-duel/ http://artofmanliness.com/2010/03/05/man-knowledge-an-affair...
LearnYouALisp 15y ago
Thank you for standing for what is upright. We need to speak the truth concerning what is right and what is not right.

beagle3 15y ago

> Our society used to be based on concepts like honor. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Society was never based on honor; it was always about worshiping those who succeeded, regardless of how bad they had been, as long as they did some good at some point. see, e.g. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Mellon & Gates in recent times, and basically all fondly remembered kings and barons in earlier times. Society adapts, in part, by giving socially acceptable deeds a normative description and concept. The socially acceptable statements lag the deeds, not lead them. > People see Wall Street crash-creators testifying at Congress answering "I do not recall" to 100% of the questions. Instead of dishonoring those liars "These liars" applies equally well to congress as to those wall street execs (with whom the former are figuratively, "in bed", and have been for the last century or so) Really, the only thing that has changed is ease of access to information. Human greed, actions and norms as reflected by social response, by and large, haven't.

forensic 15y ago
It's your type of cynicism that is actually an apologetic for the dishonorable behavior. If you stopped saying "everyone does it" then we could start punishing the dishonorable. It's NOT TRUE that everyone is a liar. Rockefeller and Carnegie were liars, sure, but they had to keep it quiet, they had to buy up newspapers and physically intimate people so their lies would not be exposed, or they would lose face. Our entire legal system is based on the concept of honor. It's a real thing that existed and people took it seriously. Of course people still lied and some people worshipped the powerful, but at least back then people hid their skeletons in the closet. Now people just blatantly lie, openly engage in what would be called bribery at any other point in history, blatantly and proudly sell out the public good for personal profit, engage in the grossest type of war-profiteering, etc. Remember how war profiteering used to be a bad thing? Now it's a fucking virtue. Halliburton is a war-profiteering company! War-profiteers used to be hanged for treason! There was a time in America where if you committed fraud, no matter how "technically legal", you would be lynched. Until dead. And juries would acquit your murderer.
- HalibetLector 15y ago
  Sources? beagle3 offers concrete examples, you don't. I'd love to be proven wrong here, but I've found nothing that suggests honor was ever valued in the united states and certainly not the way you say it was. Japan, certainly...
  - forensic 15y ago
    "There is no question what the roll of honor in America is. The roll of honor consists of the names of men who have squared their conduct by ideals of duty." - Woodrow T. Wilson Unfortunately the internet is an intellectual ghetto and so there are no good links that describe honour. But cmon you ignorant computer scientists, read a fucking history book. Honor was the most important code of conduct for American aristocrats and lasted until the mid-20th century. If they were publicly dishonoured they could lose everything they cared about. This is why people fought duels to defend their honour. People were willing to die to maintain their honour. http://artofmanliness.com/2010/03/05/man-knowledge-an-affair-of-honor-the-duel/ http://artofmanliness.com/2010/03/05/man-knowledge-an-affair...

LearnYouALisp 15y ago

Thank you for standing for what is upright. We need to speak the truth concerning what is right and what is not right.