4 ms·

The reason the boss man doesn't want to hear your thing is that it's basically super hard to get. "Good developers" are hard to find. Average developers aren't

The reason the boss man doesn't want to hear your thing is that it's basically super hard to get. "Good developers" are hard to find. Average developers aren't even easy to find nevermind ones that are actually good. The paying them a good salary and treating them well, companies are right onboard with in my experience. The tech department has better working conditions that most other departments. I worked at one company and one of the marketing teams once had to leave a resturant before eating because their lunch time ran out. So they paid for their food and left without it. All the techies just looked on in shock. We came and went as we wanted. But the thing of finding good developers is hard. Even if you target just the folks in the top 50% of the bell curve, it's still going to be hard. And in my experience you get a few lower quality developers in and the next minute you've got someone saying their AWS lambda solutiuon can scale to any level 10 minutes after their solution took down the whole system in cascading failures because it was returning 500 due to the non-serverless database not scaling... I swear to god, even the non-technical folk knew the guy was talking nonsense. And the thing is, these people can and will pass your tech tests because honestly tech tests aren't really good at showing you how good a developer is actually understanding things. They can write quicksort but have no idea, how to figure out the best way to scale a data export feature that is crashing because of memory limits. And the thing really with no-code, you encounter a bug, you're possibly dependent on a third party to fix the bug. Not a good place to be in because they never care as much as you do.

ambicapter 4y ago
> The tech department has better working conditions that most other departments. How many departments are asked to check in every single day with what you did yesterday and what you plan on doing today?
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  The humanity of being asked two simple questions about what work you're doing. It's shocking. I know. But I've worked at a few companies where they rolled the standup out to otherd departments. If you honestly think being asked those 2 simple questions is not being treated well. You're going to have a hard life.
  - esotericimpl 4y ago
  - Retric 4y ago
    No single example on it’s own seems like such a big deal. But long hours, being on call, little respect, etc show IT is a low status profession that happens to pay reasonably well.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      It is just baffling that you think this. Have you worked in the service industry recently? Like about half of americans? Where you also work long hours, but don't have a set schedule, or health insurance, or pto. And are required to endure virtually any debasement a customer feels like exposing you to. And your behavior, appearance, comings and goings are rigidly governed by a handbook and enforced by petty tyrants enraged by also enduring all these same conditions? Get some perspective ffs. This is the easiest, cushiest job I've ever had, and the only one where people with masters degrees often consider me their peer despite my 11th grade education. Stop whining and join a union or something seriously. These are all minor and solvable problems.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - ipaddr 4y ago
        That says more about you than the average developer. You may feel you won the lottery because you don't have to stack boxes in your hometown for minimum wage because of the limitations on a grade 11 education. That person who put in the effort/time/money to get that masters might feel left out of the club of his former peers run the show. Please get some perspective not everyone is in your situation.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- icelancer 4y ago
  Sales and Marketing both deal with this and have for much longer than software developers.
  - that_guy_iain 4y ago
    Having worked sales. You got asked what you've done today multiple times during the day.
    - icelancer 4y ago
      Yeah, same. Once per day would be a dream.
- stcroixx 4y ago
  Kids in US public schools stop getting micromanaged like this around first grade. Tech workers are treated like toddlers.
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  What will happen if you will tell your manager that you will not visit those standups anymore? Will you be fired?
- PhasmaFelis 4y ago
  Annoying as morning standups are, they are (well, should be) about keeping the team in sync and communicating, not about Big Brother watching you. Companies that want to be Big Brother have much more intrusive and insidious ways of doing that. I am a disorganized guy who hates authority and interruptions, and even so I have grudgingly come to realize that (strictly) 15-minute morning standups actually do increase my productivity.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
orwin 4y ago
>Not a good place to be in because they never care as much as you do. What you really want is developers who understand your solution and your stack, and actively want to contribute. And for that, you need a good team mentality, easy-to-read code, and a good onboarding. And avoid crunch time as much as possible, especially when a new hire arrive, because you want him to ask dumb questions asap. [useless personnal anecdote because i feel great about my new workplace removed]
loudmax 4y ago
Without knowing the background to that anecdote, the impression I get is less that the tech folks at that company were coddled than that the marketing folks were undervalued. If the marketing folks really are providing value for the company and doing a good job marketing the company, then there's no sense in forcing them to miss lunch. If the marketing folks require so much micromanagement that they can't be trusted to schedule their own lunch breaks they probably aren't contributing significant value to the company anyway, so they should be let go and replaced with a more responsible marketing department. It takes a lot of different skills to run a company. Even at a tech company, tech isn't the only skill that matters.
- nightpool 4y ago
  I believe that was exactly GP's point—they're just pointing out that the problem with retaining tech workers isn't often that they're treated poorly by their company, even when that might be the problem with retaining many other workers.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>after their solution took down the whole system in cascading failures because it was returning 500 due to the non-serverless database not scaling Why is a single dev able to take down your entire system without intention? >They can write quicksort but have no idea So don't use quicksort or identical questions and ask them more. Your entire anecdote can just as well be held as testament of how a company's process is completely fragile. Which is at least a yellow flag as to what else it is hiding.
Yizahi 4y ago
You don't need good developers as in top quartile genius ones. Even more, they don't want to work at your bank or web shop. You need good developers, where good means "decent human beings" while being just average ib talent. Those can be found without gigantic effort, I'd say a majority of developers fall in this category. There is only one hard requirement for recruiting such average team. To hire and retain developers who are "decent human beings" the manager/hr should also be good, as in "decent human beings".
- blastro 4y ago
  Reminds me of the movie "Shaolin Soccer" [1] wherein a martial arts master becomes a soccer coach, and organizes a rag-tag group of misfits into a championship team. Software is a team sport. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Soccer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Soccer
chasd00 4y ago
> you're possibly dependent on a third party to fix the bug. IT departments love this, because it's not their problem and they don't have to do anything except press reload in the third party's ticketing system.
jjav 4y ago
> "Good developers" are hard to find. Average developers aren't even easy to find nevermind ones that are actually good. That's really not true. You don't need to find a Linus or Ken Thompson for that enterprise system. All you need is developers with sufficient maturity to not be distracted by shiny objects, who are proud to build reliable secure systems with the most boring technology applicable (complexity is the enemy of everything, including security, availability and maintainability). These people are easy to find. Yes, you still have to treat them humanely and pay fairly, but finding them is easy. One factor that may seem to make them difficult to find is the current interviewing landscape. If your hiring process is laser focused on hiring leetcode ninjas, you will staff teams full of leetcode ninjas. I will say the union between the sets (leetcode ninjas) and (maturity to favor stable solutions) isn't super huge. If for anyone who is doing leetcode hiring (not specifically leetcode, but that mindset) and finding hiring competent people difficult, I can suggest to change your hiring practices and your world will change dramatically. (Or don't, leaving even more competent developers for me to find even easier.)

ambicapter 4y ago

> The tech department has better working conditions that most other departments. How many departments are asked to check in every single day with what you did yesterday and what you plan on doing today?

that_guy_iain 4y ago
The humanity of being asked two simple questions about what work you're doing. It's shocking. I know. But I've worked at a few companies where they rolled the standup out to otherd departments. If you honestly think being asked those 2 simple questions is not being treated well. You're going to have a hard life.
- esotericimpl 4y ago
- Retric 4y ago
  No single example on it’s own seems like such a big deal. But long hours, being on call, little respect, etc show IT is a low status profession that happens to pay reasonably well.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    It is just baffling that you think this. Have you worked in the service industry recently? Like about half of americans? Where you also work long hours, but don't have a set schedule, or health insurance, or pto. And are required to endure virtually any debasement a customer feels like exposing you to. And your behavior, appearance, comings and goings are rigidly governed by a handbook and enforced by petty tyrants enraged by also enduring all these same conditions? Get some perspective ffs. This is the easiest, cushiest job I've ever had, and the only one where people with masters degrees often consider me their peer despite my 11th grade education. Stop whining and join a union or something seriously. These are all minor and solvable problems.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      That says more about you than the average developer. You may feel you won the lottery because you don't have to stack boxes in your hometown for minimum wage because of the limitations on a grade 11 education. That person who put in the effort/time/money to get that masters might feel left out of the club of his former peers run the show. Please get some perspective not everyone is in your situation.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
icelancer 4y ago
Sales and Marketing both deal with this and have for much longer than software developers.
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  Having worked sales. You got asked what you've done today multiple times during the day.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    Yeah, same. Once per day would be a dream.
stcroixx 4y ago
Kids in US public schools stop getting micromanaged like this around first grade. Tech workers are treated like toddlers.
vbezhenar 4y ago
What will happen if you will tell your manager that you will not visit those standups anymore? Will you be fired?
PhasmaFelis 4y ago
Annoying as morning standups are, they are (well, should be) about keeping the team in sync and communicating, not about Big Brother watching you. Companies that want to be Big Brother have much more intrusive and insidious ways of doing that. I am a disorganized guy who hates authority and interruptions, and even so I have grudgingly come to realize that (strictly) 15-minute morning standups actually do increase my productivity.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

orwin 4y ago

>Not a good place to be in because they never care as much as you do. What you really want is developers who understand your solution and your stack, and actively want to contribute. And for that, you need a good team mentality, easy-to-read code, and a good onboarding. And avoid crunch time as much as possible, especially when a new hire arrive, because you want him to ask dumb questions asap. [useless personnal anecdote because i feel great about my new workplace removed]

loudmax 4y ago

Without knowing the background to that anecdote, the impression I get is less that the tech folks at that company were coddled than that the marketing folks were undervalued. If the marketing folks really are providing value for the company and doing a good job marketing the company, then there's no sense in forcing them to miss lunch. If the marketing folks require so much micromanagement that they can't be trusted to schedule their own lunch breaks they probably aren't contributing significant value to the company anyway, so they should be let go and replaced with a more responsible marketing department. It takes a lot of different skills to run a company. Even at a tech company, tech isn't the only skill that matters.

nightpool 4y ago
I believe that was exactly GP's point—they're just pointing out that the problem with retaining tech workers isn't often that they're treated poorly by their company, even when that might be the problem with retaining many other workers.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>after their solution took down the whole system in cascading failures because it was returning 500 due to the non-serverless database not scaling Why is a single dev able to take down your entire system without intention? >They can write quicksort but have no idea So don't use quicksort or identical questions and ask them more. Your entire anecdote can just as well be held as testament of how a company's process is completely fragile. Which is at least a yellow flag as to what else it is hiding.

Yizahi 4y ago

You don't need good developers as in top quartile genius ones. Even more, they don't want to work at your bank or web shop. You need good developers, where good means "decent human beings" while being just average ib talent. Those can be found without gigantic effort, I'd say a majority of developers fall in this category. There is only one hard requirement for recruiting such average team. To hire and retain developers who are "decent human beings" the manager/hr should also be good, as in "decent human beings".

blastro 4y ago
Reminds me of the movie "Shaolin Soccer" [1] wherein a martial arts master becomes a soccer coach, and organizes a rag-tag group of misfits into a championship team. Software is a team sport. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Soccer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Soccer

chasd00 4y ago

> you're possibly dependent on a third party to fix the bug. IT departments love this, because it's not their problem and they don't have to do anything except press reload in the third party's ticketing system.

jjav 4y ago

> "Good developers" are hard to find. Average developers aren't even easy to find nevermind ones that are actually good. That's really not true. You don't need to find a Linus or Ken Thompson for that enterprise system. All you need is developers with sufficient maturity to not be distracted by shiny objects, who are proud to build reliable secure systems with the most boring technology applicable (complexity is the enemy of everything, including security, availability and maintainability). These people are easy to find. Yes, you still have to treat them humanely and pay fairly, but finding them is easy. One factor that may seem to make them difficult to find is the current interviewing landscape. If your hiring process is laser focused on hiring leetcode ninjas, you will staff teams full of leetcode ninjas. I will say the union between the sets (leetcode ninjas) and (maturity to favor stable solutions) isn't super huge. If for anyone who is doing leetcode hiring (not specifically leetcode, but that mindset) and finding hiring competent people difficult, I can suggest to change your hiring practices and your world will change dramatically. (Or don't, leaving even more competent developers for me to find even easier.)