7 ms·

We saw this a lot with Covid. I just hope we learned to be more open minded next time.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
My man, if covid2 came out of the same… place tomorrow, we would do it all over again. Fear was made into a virtue, and every government body on earth discovered powers they didn’t know they had. It would play out same or worse, no one learned anything.
- poszlem 4y ago
  I find it baffling that this comment is downvoted so heavily. To me it seems quite spot on, and I wonder what is it that people downvoting it think is incorrect?
  - sva_ 4y ago
    It worked out well for governments once. I don't see any clear indication that it would again. I think people are tired of - in some cases - arbitrary measures and I wouldn't be so certain that they'd go along with it in the same way. The real bitch of it is, that if we would now be facing a much more dangerous virus, people might not take it seriously enough due to covid turning out to be not as dangerous as initially thought.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    What kinds of abuse of power did you see lasting on any democratic country? Or even being useful for the powerful?
    - scifibestfi 4y ago
      The squelching of dissent/free speech and destroying small businesses in favor of large corporations.
      - marcosdumay 4y ago
        > The squelching of dissent/free speech Yeah, I do need some more explanation before understanding this one. Are you talking about the use of social media for propaganda? If that's the case, I have some news for you, the pandemics only destroyed it, it was being used that way for years already. > destroying small businesses in favor of large corporations And that one is completely vague.
        DougN7 4y ago
        I suspect this refers to small mom-and-pop shops and restaurants that couldn’t survive the lock downs. Much bigger chains seem to have survived better.
    - poszlem 4y ago
      Before the COVID-19 pandemic, many people in the West took for granted the freedom and mobility that we enjoy in our societies. We assumed that the government would never impose drastic measures such as curfews or lockdowns, because these measures are often associated with authoritarian regimes. However, the pandemic has forced us to reevaluate these assumptions, because as soon as some governments in the West saw how well it "worked" in China they decided to implement the same thing.
      - athrowaway12 4y ago
        Where in the West were there actual curfews? In the U.S. I don't remember there being any; just some talk about potentially quarantining NYC which of course never actually happened.
        poszlem 4y ago
        * https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/sydney-covid-19-lockdown-be-extended-until-sept-end-2021-08-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/sydney-covid-19-l... * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-19/london-put-in-emergency-lockdown-as-u-k-fights-new-virus-strain https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-19/london-pu... * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55424855 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55424855 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/boris-johnson-orders-uk-lockdown-to-be-enforced-by-police https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/boris-johnson-... * https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/03/13/5e6b844e21efa0dd258b45a5.html https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/03/13/5e6b844e21efa0dd258... * https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/poland-in-covid-19-lockdown-pm-orders-bars-restaurants-shopping-centres-and-borders-closed---and-cancels-all-flights-11142 https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/poland-in-covid-19-lock... * https://www.wsj.com/articles/italy-bolsters-quarantine-checks-after-initial-lockdown-confusion-11583756737 https://www.wsj.com/articles/italy-bolsters-quarantine-check... I could do this all day. I find it hard to believe that you genuinely don't know about any of that.
        athrowaway12 4y ago
        Ah ok, so Australia, UK, Spain, Italy, Poland. Not the U.S. though right? I guess Europeans had a much stricter lockdown. You're right though, I genuinely didn't know it was so strict in Europe and Australia.
    - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
      * Austria made vaccines mandatory. You got a letter from the government saying "present yourself at this time and place to get a vaccine". Making a vaccine whose long term effects are not known mandatory is an abuse of power IMO. There were talks of this in Germany too but luckily the officials were more level headed there. * Despite taking literally daily tests, I was not allowed into any establishment inside Germany since I did not have a vaccine pass. The only place I could go for months was the supermarket -- it got so bad I left Germany temporarily get away from the measures. * Lockdowns and curfews abound. My grandparents (not in Germany) were not allowed outside the house except for 1 hour a day, and they had to write down their route exactly in case the police checked them. * This is from the people, not the government, but the amount of people who would blindly say "trust the science behind the vaccines" is.. insane. Do they understand the concept of science at all? You cannot prove there are no long term effects of a newly developed vaccine, also using a newly developed method of creating vaccines, without an experiment. No matter how smart the scientists are. Trust is not a thing in science. (The same can be said of COVID, but then _let me make my own choice_, based on my own risk factors)
      - athrowaway12 4y ago
        Ok... but that mostly just seems like Germany. At least the stereotype of Germany is that all the rules are very strict and it's very important to follow them. From "What makes Germans so orderly?" https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20200531-what-makes-germans-so-orderly https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20200531-what-makes-germa... On the high-speed train gliding smoothly from Berlin to Düsseldorf, a young man started chatting to me. He eventually asked, “What are some of the cultural differences you’ve noticed between Germans and Americans?” As if on cue, a middle-aged woman hovered over us and gave a harsh, “Shh!” with her finger pressed against her lips. She pointed to a sign of a mobile phone with a cross through it, indicating that we were in the Ruhebereich, the quiet carriage of the train. “You must be quiet,” she said, before returning to her seat. “That,” I said to the man sitting next to me. “That’s different.” From "The lines a German won't cross" https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/weekinreview/05KULISH.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/weekinreview/05KULISH.htm... As their eyes alight on the small sign that goes with it, which reads “barefoot zone” in German, grown men freeze as though they have hit a force field, or had an electric shock administered for being foolish enough to try to pass it still shod. But I can not say what the repercussions would be. This being Germany, I have never seen anyone wearing shoes on the far side of the line and certainly would not risk it myself. These are articles published in respectable, mainstream, western news. I'm not alone in thinking that German society is somewhat stricter than most other western societies.
- jfengel 4y ago
  This is "covid 2". Covid 1 was called SARS. This one is called SARS-COV-2. COVID 1 managed to die out before becoming a pandemic. That's one reason people treated SARS-COV-2 as harmless until it already was a pandemic. Epidemiologists and public health planners learned a lot from both. But when SARS-COV-3 comes around, they will still not have learned how to deal with the large numbers of people who will say it's not a problem even after it has caused the death of millions.
  - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
    You need to balance the public health response with the opinion of the people. Ignoring those with valid concerns about the power balance between the government and those ruled by it is not a way to do so. You may believe others are stupid for not believing the same things you do, and that is your right, but that severely hampers the ability to make correct decisions. If you look at China, that is basically the worst nightmare of anyone who expresses doubts about how much we should trust the government to handle a pandemic. The situation is much different from ours no doubt, but it cannot be said that it's totally unreasonable to be scared of a government using a crisis to enforce authoritarian policies (what about terrorism? or drugs?). IMO this is the same problem as the current left vs right divide in America: no one wants to concede that the other side might have a point. Instead, they'd rather make snide comments about how the other side is a bunch of children/stupid/racist/whatever, instead of understanding that other humans may have been raised different and have different opinions. There is no attempt to resolve, just overpower.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      The problem, as I see it, is that the other side may not have a point. Consider a similar scenario: climate change. Either this is a real, serious thing that needs to be dealt with, or it is a hoax. Whichever one it is, many millions of people constituting at least a large minority are wildly deluded. There's not a ton of room for middle ground. If climate change is not real, then it is a vast power-grab on an utterly unprecedented scale that would justify any efforts to thwart it. If it is real, then the widespread belief in that power grab is a dangerous delusion. Public policy responses do need to take everything into account, including people who believe things that are wrong. But science allows only so much flexibility there, and when the scales have been upped to the point where the alternatives are "numerous deaths" or "a vast hoax for perpetrating harm on millions", there's not a ton of room for middle ground. Resolution is not always possible. I wish it were, but it is not. Somebody here is behaving very, very badly, and it may be more effective to simply ignore them -- assuming you can figure out which one they are. If they complain about being ignored, there's no alternative to treating it as a deadweight loss.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Also bullshit

My man, if covid2 came out of the same… place tomorrow, we would do it all over again. Fear was made into a virtue, and every government body on earth discovered powers they didn’t know they had. It would play out same or worse, no one learned anything.

poszlem 4y ago
I find it baffling that this comment is downvoted so heavily. To me it seems quite spot on, and I wonder what is it that people downvoting it think is incorrect?
- sva_ 4y ago
  It worked out well for governments once. I don't see any clear indication that it would again. I think people are tired of - in some cases - arbitrary measures and I wouldn't be so certain that they'd go along with it in the same way. The real bitch of it is, that if we would now be facing a much more dangerous virus, people might not take it seriously enough due to covid turning out to be not as dangerous as initially thought.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  What kinds of abuse of power did you see lasting on any democratic country? Or even being useful for the powerful?
  - scifibestfi 4y ago
    The squelching of dissent/free speech and destroying small businesses in favor of large corporations.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      > The squelching of dissent/free speech Yeah, I do need some more explanation before understanding this one. Are you talking about the use of social media for propaganda? If that's the case, I have some news for you, the pandemics only destroyed it, it was being used that way for years already. > destroying small businesses in favor of large corporations And that one is completely vague.
      - DougN7 4y ago
        I suspect this refers to small mom-and-pop shops and restaurants that couldn’t survive the lock downs. Much bigger chains seem to have survived better.
  - poszlem 4y ago
    Before the COVID-19 pandemic, many people in the West took for granted the freedom and mobility that we enjoy in our societies. We assumed that the government would never impose drastic measures such as curfews or lockdowns, because these measures are often associated with authoritarian regimes. However, the pandemic has forced us to reevaluate these assumptions, because as soon as some governments in the West saw how well it "worked" in China they decided to implement the same thing.
    - athrowaway12 4y ago
      Where in the West were there actual curfews? In the U.S. I don't remember there being any; just some talk about potentially quarantining NYC which of course never actually happened.
      - poszlem 4y ago
        * https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/sydney-covid-19-lockdown-be-extended-until-sept-end-2021-08-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/sydney-covid-19-l... * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-19/london-put-in-emergency-lockdown-as-u-k-fights-new-virus-strain https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-19/london-pu... * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55424855 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55424855 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/boris-johnson-orders-uk-lockdown-to-be-enforced-by-police https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/boris-johnson-... * https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/03/13/5e6b844e21efa0dd258b45a5.html https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/03/13/5e6b844e21efa0dd258... * https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/poland-in-covid-19-lockdown-pm-orders-bars-restaurants-shopping-centres-and-borders-closed---and-cancels-all-flights-11142 https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/poland-in-covid-19-lock... * https://www.wsj.com/articles/italy-bolsters-quarantine-checks-after-initial-lockdown-confusion-11583756737 https://www.wsj.com/articles/italy-bolsters-quarantine-check... I could do this all day. I find it hard to believe that you genuinely don't know about any of that.
        athrowaway12 4y ago
        Ah ok, so Australia, UK, Spain, Italy, Poland. Not the U.S. though right? I guess Europeans had a much stricter lockdown. You're right though, I genuinely didn't know it was so strict in Europe and Australia.
  - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
    * Austria made vaccines mandatory. You got a letter from the government saying "present yourself at this time and place to get a vaccine". Making a vaccine whose long term effects are not known mandatory is an abuse of power IMO. There were talks of this in Germany too but luckily the officials were more level headed there. * Despite taking literally daily tests, I was not allowed into any establishment inside Germany since I did not have a vaccine pass. The only place I could go for months was the supermarket -- it got so bad I left Germany temporarily get away from the measures. * Lockdowns and curfews abound. My grandparents (not in Germany) were not allowed outside the house except for 1 hour a day, and they had to write down their route exactly in case the police checked them. * This is from the people, not the government, but the amount of people who would blindly say "trust the science behind the vaccines" is.. insane. Do they understand the concept of science at all? You cannot prove there are no long term effects of a newly developed vaccine, also using a newly developed method of creating vaccines, without an experiment. No matter how smart the scientists are. Trust is not a thing in science. (The same can be said of COVID, but then _let me make my own choice_, based on my own risk factors)
    - athrowaway12 4y ago
      Ok... but that mostly just seems like Germany. At least the stereotype of Germany is that all the rules are very strict and it's very important to follow them. From "What makes Germans so orderly?" https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20200531-what-makes-germans-so-orderly https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20200531-what-makes-germa... On the high-speed train gliding smoothly from Berlin to Düsseldorf, a young man started chatting to me. He eventually asked, “What are some of the cultural differences you’ve noticed between Germans and Americans?” As if on cue, a middle-aged woman hovered over us and gave a harsh, “Shh!” with her finger pressed against her lips. She pointed to a sign of a mobile phone with a cross through it, indicating that we were in the Ruhebereich, the quiet carriage of the train. “You must be quiet,” she said, before returning to her seat. “That,” I said to the man sitting next to me. “That’s different.” From "The lines a German won't cross" https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/weekinreview/05KULISH.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/weekinreview/05KULISH.htm... As their eyes alight on the small sign that goes with it, which reads “barefoot zone” in German, grown men freeze as though they have hit a force field, or had an electric shock administered for being foolish enough to try to pass it still shod. But I can not say what the repercussions would be. This being Germany, I have never seen anyone wearing shoes on the far side of the line and certainly would not risk it myself. These are articles published in respectable, mainstream, western news. I'm not alone in thinking that German society is somewhat stricter than most other western societies.
jfengel 4y ago
This is "covid 2". Covid 1 was called SARS. This one is called SARS-COV-2. COVID 1 managed to die out before becoming a pandemic. That's one reason people treated SARS-COV-2 as harmless until it already was a pandemic. Epidemiologists and public health planners learned a lot from both. But when SARS-COV-3 comes around, they will still not have learned how to deal with the large numbers of people who will say it's not a problem even after it has caused the death of millions.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  You need to balance the public health response with the opinion of the people. Ignoring those with valid concerns about the power balance between the government and those ruled by it is not a way to do so. You may believe others are stupid for not believing the same things you do, and that is your right, but that severely hampers the ability to make correct decisions. If you look at China, that is basically the worst nightmare of anyone who expresses doubts about how much we should trust the government to handle a pandemic. The situation is much different from ours no doubt, but it cannot be said that it's totally unreasonable to be scared of a government using a crisis to enforce authoritarian policies (what about terrorism? or drugs?). IMO this is the same problem as the current left vs right divide in America: no one wants to concede that the other side might have a point. Instead, they'd rather make snide comments about how the other side is a bunch of children/stupid/racist/whatever, instead of understanding that other humans may have been raised different and have different opinions. There is no attempt to resolve, just overpower.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    The problem, as I see it, is that the other side may not have a point. Consider a similar scenario: climate change. Either this is a real, serious thing that needs to be dealt with, or it is a hoax. Whichever one it is, many millions of people constituting at least a large minority are wildly deluded. There's not a ton of room for middle ground. If climate change is not real, then it is a vast power-grab on an utterly unprecedented scale that would justify any efforts to thwart it. If it is real, then the widespread belief in that power grab is a dangerous delusion. Public policy responses do need to take everything into account, including people who believe things that are wrong. But science allows only so much flexibility there, and when the scales have been upped to the point where the alternatives are "numerous deaths" or "a vast hoax for perpetrating harm on millions", there's not a ton of room for middle ground. Resolution is not always possible. I wish it were, but it is not. Somebody here is behaving very, very badly, and it may be more effective to simply ignore them -- assuming you can figure out which one they are. If they complain about being ignored, there's no alternative to treating it as a deadweight loss.
anigbrowl 4y ago
Also bullshit