4 ms·

A lot of people responsible for 20th century architecture believed more or less that beauty is Literally Fascism, so that's another component. The ugliness isn'

A lot of people responsible for 20th century architecture believed more or less that beauty is Literally Fascism, so that's another component. The ugliness isn't always accidental.

tgv 4y ago
The weird thing is: that aesthetic is also completely gone in fascist art. Look at New Rome, or Speer's plans. The human aspect is gone.
- voldacar 4y ago
  Some of Albert Speer's stuff is pretty cool. Certainly nowhere near the ugliness of anything Le Corbusier designed. Though it definitely does have a kind of austere bloodlessness that is also present in Italian Fascist architecture, sort of monumental yet dead.
  - ectopod 4y ago
    Fun fact: Qatar's world cup football stadia were designed by Albert Speer & Partners. This Albert was the son of the Nazi.
api 4y ago
Fascism via "vokisch" movements and ideas attempted to more or less co-opt and own romanticism, classicism, and other forms of non-"modernist" aesthetics. As a result you had a counter-reaction that labeled these things fascist and embraced intentionally minimal, modernist, or decadent themes in rebellion against them. The solution is probably to de-fascize(?) classical and romantic aesthetics. Not sure how you'd do it though since if you search Twitter for random people with greek and classical looking avatars they're inevitably raging racist totalitarians or nihilistic /pol troll types. Maybe you could do it with shocking-to-fascists heresy like "woke" propaganda wrapped in neoclassical high culture aesthetics. No idea. Of course it could also be useful to just point out that fascism is really a form of "high modernism." Fascism is a form of "we are smart people who know better and are going to centrally plan and re-make culture the way we think it should be," which is precisely what's wrong with the high modernist approach to the inhabited landscape.
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  - bilvar 4y ago
    Those people you mention, as far as I understand you are identifying what we call the 'Intelligentsia'. They are the ideological siblings of the Fascists, so no wonder they have the same / very similar approach.
- eternalban 4y ago
  > The solution is probably to de-fascize(?) classical and romantic aesthetics. This is all so funny. Rewind a generation or two and all this "fascist" talk was directed at folk who admired men wearing togas while emitting Latin. Back then, 'to strip down to its essence and meaning' was the revolutionary act. > [Architecture] is a form of "we are smart people who know better and are going to centrally plan and re-make culture the way we think it should be," And that is the point of architecture (vs mere act of building). Your myths, religions, literature, music, philosophy, and architecture and most matter of significance that is part and parcel of your culture was most likely created and promoted by a tiny (tiny!) subset of the population. Always has been. Everywhere. > to centrally plan and re-make culture the way we think it should be," Is, has been, and will always remain the prerogative of the ruling class. All this aesthetic talk is blather masking the underlying and reasonable social angst regarding the highly distorted wealth and power distribution among the population. The clique in power sets the tone and direction of culture. Heck, your kings used to have dreams, wake up and change religions, and then presto pagans become Christian or Jew or Muslim. [Don't shoot the messenger. Just pointing out facts.] And if you think this gray "putty" business is bad, I invited you to review K-Mart catalogues from 70s. Everything came in two neon colors - some washed out puke blue and a variation of 'dirt color'. I remember asking my dad when we first came over to US (and I got my first k-mart shock) as to why won't they make nicer colors for the common people. It remained a puzzle for a long time, this insistence on making cheap consumer items look even cheaper. So this gray is actually the progression from K-Mart Puke Pallet -> Gap's B&W T -> faux-thoughtful "gray". It is progress, of a sort, believe it or not.
- 4y ago
pantalaimon 4y ago
Even before there was the idea that ornamentation was ultimately a waste of resources and is incompatible with the promise of efficiency that brings about the modern world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime
- masswerk 4y ago
  Still, the Looshaus was rather ornamental for present day standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looshaus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looshaus There's also a considerable difference in modernist/brutalist architecture and current blandness. Speaking of Vienna, compare the same lot, Rathausstraße 1, Harry Glück, 1980 [1], and current replacement [2]. (It's not just the US.) [1] former computation center of the city of Vienna: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Rechenzentrum_Harry_Glück.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Rechenzentrum_Harry_Glüc... [2] commercial replacement: https://images.app.goo.gl/1S6Xjnk6XLmZ9XqbA https://images.app.goo.gl/1S6Xjnk6XLmZ9XqbA (BUWOG, as seen on top of the mall-like structure, is the former housing cooperative for federal officers, now privatized and mostly selling off the apartments. For the better or – as may be feared – the worse, the replacement building is literally a temple to residential building.)

A lot of people responsible for 20th century architecture believed more or less that beauty is Literally Fascism, so that's another component. The ugliness isn't always accidental.

tgv 4y ago

The weird thing is: that aesthetic is also completely gone in fascist art. Look at New Rome, or Speer's plans. The human aspect is gone.

voldacar 4y ago
Some of Albert Speer's stuff is pretty cool. Certainly nowhere near the ugliness of anything Le Corbusier designed. Though it definitely does have a kind of austere bloodlessness that is also present in Italian Fascist architecture, sort of monumental yet dead.
- ectopod 4y ago
  Fun fact: Qatar's world cup football stadia were designed by Albert Speer & Partners. This Albert was the son of the Nazi.

api 4y ago

Fascism via "vokisch" movements and ideas attempted to more or less co-opt and own romanticism, classicism, and other forms of non-"modernist" aesthetics. As a result you had a counter-reaction that labeled these things fascist and embraced intentionally minimal, modernist, or decadent themes in rebellion against them. The solution is probably to de-fascize(?) classical and romantic aesthetics. Not sure how you'd do it though since if you search Twitter for random people with greek and classical looking avatars they're inevitably raging racist totalitarians or nihilistic /pol troll types. Maybe you could do it with shocking-to-fascists heresy like "woke" propaganda wrapped in neoclassical high culture aesthetics. No idea. Of course it could also be useful to just point out that fascism is really a form of "high modernism." Fascism is a form of "we are smart people who know better and are going to centrally plan and re-make culture the way we think it should be," which is precisely what's wrong with the high modernist approach to the inhabited landscape.

at_a_remove 4y ago
- bilvar 4y ago
  Those people you mention, as far as I understand you are identifying what we call the 'Intelligentsia'. They are the ideological siblings of the Fascists, so no wonder they have the same / very similar approach.
eternalban 4y ago
> The solution is probably to de-fascize(?) classical and romantic aesthetics. This is all so funny. Rewind a generation or two and all this "fascist" talk was directed at folk who admired men wearing togas while emitting Latin. Back then, 'to strip down to its essence and meaning' was the revolutionary act. > [Architecture] is a form of "we are smart people who know better and are going to centrally plan and re-make culture the way we think it should be," And that is the point of architecture (vs mere act of building). Your myths, religions, literature, music, philosophy, and architecture and most matter of significance that is part and parcel of your culture was most likely created and promoted by a tiny (tiny!) subset of the population. Always has been. Everywhere. > to centrally plan and re-make culture the way we think it should be," Is, has been, and will always remain the prerogative of the ruling class. All this aesthetic talk is blather masking the underlying and reasonable social angst regarding the highly distorted wealth and power distribution among the population. The clique in power sets the tone and direction of culture. Heck, your kings used to have dreams, wake up and change religions, and then presto pagans become Christian or Jew or Muslim. [Don't shoot the messenger. Just pointing out facts.] And if you think this gray "putty" business is bad, I invited you to review K-Mart catalogues from 70s. Everything came in two neon colors - some washed out puke blue and a variation of 'dirt color'. I remember asking my dad when we first came over to US (and I got my first k-mart shock) as to why won't they make nicer colors for the common people. It remained a puzzle for a long time, this insistence on making cheap consumer items look even cheaper. So this gray is actually the progression from K-Mart Puke Pallet -> Gap's B&W T -> faux-thoughtful "gray". It is progress, of a sort, believe it or not.
4y ago

pantalaimon 4y ago

Even before there was the idea that ornamentation was ultimately a waste of resources and is incompatible with the promise of efficiency that brings about the modern world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime

masswerk 4y ago
Still, the Looshaus was rather ornamental for present day standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looshaus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looshaus There's also a considerable difference in modernist/brutalist architecture and current blandness. Speaking of Vienna, compare the same lot, Rathausstraße 1, Harry Glück, 1980 [1], and current replacement [2]. (It's not just the US.) [1] former computation center of the city of Vienna: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Rechenzentrum_Harry_Glück.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Rechenzentrum_Harry_Glüc... [2] commercial replacement: https://images.app.goo.gl/1S6Xjnk6XLmZ9XqbA https://images.app.goo.gl/1S6Xjnk6XLmZ9XqbA (BUWOG, as seen on top of the mall-like structure, is the former housing cooperative for federal officers, now privatized and mostly selling off the apartments. For the better or – as may be feared – the worse, the replacement building is literally a temple to residential building.)