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I used to fully agree with that feeling but not anymore. IMO they are two kinds of tests: 1. Tests to help you retain information. 2. Tests to evaluate your

by gjadi 4y ago

I used to fully agree with that feeling but not anymore. IMO they are two kinds of tests: 1. Tests to help you retain information. 2. Tests to evaluate your knowledge. Assuming this question belongs to the first kind (memorization) and the answer is in a textbook being studied, then this is a good question.

jolmg 4y ago
So, a good question for a bad kind of test? Why shouldn't all tests be type 2?
- gjadi 4y ago
  Tests are one of the best technique to retain knowledge. It's called active learning, as opposed to passive learning. Space Time Repetition systems such as Anki or Mnemosyne or SuperMemo are based on 2 concepts: (1) knowledge fades overtime unless reactivated and (2) asking questions is very effective to activate knowledge
  - jolmg 4y ago
    And type 2 tests don't achieve that? Remember, we're talking about the benefit of questions that encourage the ignoring of nuance.
    - gjadi 4y ago
      They can but: - it's more time-consuming to create good evaluation questions. - it's more time-consuming to provide a nuanced answer. - it's more time-consuming to evaluate nuanced answers. If the purpose of the tests is to help students retain the knowledge they've been recently exposed to, then the first kind of tests are more effective. That is, the teacher will be able to provide students with more tests, thus helping them retain more in a shorter amount of time for everyone. It's a compromise.
      - jolmg 4y ago
        Ok, you're thinking type 1 vs type 2 is multiple choice vs written answers. I'm thinking type 2 can have multiple choice, but then there's only 1 answer that can be correct. Type 1 can have multiple choice, but puts multiple correct answers and expects you to pick the one that is most directly covered in the class, marking the other correct answers incorrect. That, to me, is testing information retention without nuanced knowledge.
        gjadi 4y ago
        On the first part of your post: We don't have the full test, so maybe the teacher had a preface saying "In the context of book XYZ...". That is what I do when I create flashcards for myself. I specify what knowledge I am testing. We may also assume it was implicit for the students. I could also imagine that forcing the student to make one choice is a feature, not bug. For example this decision may teach the student that (1) not everything is binary and a single book has no absolute truth, (2) to move forward, you need to make a choice. Regarding the second part: > That, to me, is testing information without knowledge. Memorization vs. Understanding is a false dichotomy. Both are required for proper learning. See https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn.
        jolmg 4y ago
        > Memorization vs. Understanding is a false dichotomy. Hey, you're flipping us around. Who was it that wrote this?: > IMO they are two kinds of tests: I'm the one that's arguing that it's a false dichotomy, that tests need to cover both and not one without the other. > I could also imagine that forcing the student to make one choice is a feature, not bug. For example this decision may teach the student that (1) not everything is binary and a single book has no absolute truth By writing a test that forces non-binary things to appear binary and presents the book as an absolute truth? That's going to teach them the opposite? > (2) to move forward, you need to make a choice. You're grasping at straws with this. You're telling me that marking correct answers incorrect is good because it teaches a life lesson?
  - godelski 4y ago
    You can also get spaced repetition through homework and revisiting material through lectures. I'm not denying that tests also don't do this (also forcing studying) but let's be honest that most course structures aren't created in a format that promote actual spaced repetition. You're moving the goal post a bit. If it is up to the student and not the teacher then the test is irrelevant to the discussion.
godelski 4y ago
I think we're talking about two different things. I have no problem with tests in general. But I do have a big problem with text questions that are intended to be tricky.

by gjadi 4y ago

jolmg 4y ago

So, a good question for a bad kind of test? Why shouldn't all tests be type 2?

gjadi 4y ago
Tests are one of the best technique to retain knowledge. It's called active learning, as opposed to passive learning. Space Time Repetition systems such as Anki or Mnemosyne or SuperMemo are based on 2 concepts: (1) knowledge fades overtime unless reactivated and (2) asking questions is very effective to activate knowledge
- jolmg 4y ago
  And type 2 tests don't achieve that? Remember, we're talking about the benefit of questions that encourage the ignoring of nuance.
  - gjadi 4y ago
    They can but: - it's more time-consuming to create good evaluation questions. - it's more time-consuming to provide a nuanced answer. - it's more time-consuming to evaluate nuanced answers. If the purpose of the tests is to help students retain the knowledge they've been recently exposed to, then the first kind of tests are more effective. That is, the teacher will be able to provide students with more tests, thus helping them retain more in a shorter amount of time for everyone. It's a compromise.
    - jolmg 4y ago
      Ok, you're thinking type 1 vs type 2 is multiple choice vs written answers. I'm thinking type 2 can have multiple choice, but then there's only 1 answer that can be correct. Type 1 can have multiple choice, but puts multiple correct answers and expects you to pick the one that is most directly covered in the class, marking the other correct answers incorrect. That, to me, is testing information retention without nuanced knowledge.
      - gjadi 4y ago
        On the first part of your post: We don't have the full test, so maybe the teacher had a preface saying "In the context of book XYZ...". That is what I do when I create flashcards for myself. I specify what knowledge I am testing. We may also assume it was implicit for the students. I could also imagine that forcing the student to make one choice is a feature, not bug. For example this decision may teach the student that (1) not everything is binary and a single book has no absolute truth, (2) to move forward, you need to make a choice. Regarding the second part: > That, to me, is testing information without knowledge. Memorization vs. Understanding is a false dichotomy. Both are required for proper learning. See https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn.
        jolmg 4y ago
        > Memorization vs. Understanding is a false dichotomy. Hey, you're flipping us around. Who was it that wrote this?: > IMO they are two kinds of tests: I'm the one that's arguing that it's a false dichotomy, that tests need to cover both and not one without the other. > I could also imagine that forcing the student to make one choice is a feature, not bug. For example this decision may teach the student that (1) not everything is binary and a single book has no absolute truth By writing a test that forces non-binary things to appear binary and presents the book as an absolute truth? That's going to teach them the opposite? > (2) to move forward, you need to make a choice. You're grasping at straws with this. You're telling me that marking correct answers incorrect is good because it teaches a life lesson?
- godelski 4y ago
  You can also get spaced repetition through homework and revisiting material through lectures. I'm not denying that tests also don't do this (also forcing studying) but let's be honest that most course structures aren't created in a format that promote actual spaced repetition. You're moving the goal post a bit. If it is up to the student and not the teacher then the test is irrelevant to the discussion.

godelski 4y ago

I think we're talking about two different things. I have no problem with tests in general. But I do have a big problem with text questions that are intended to be tricky.