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Stuff like this makes me wonder if taboo and stigma "evolved" in societies as defense against the spread of behavior that could cause a breakdown of social orde

by goda90 4y ago

Stuff like this makes me wonder if taboo and stigma "evolved" in societies as defense against the spread of behavior that could cause a breakdown of social order. For example, if something like dancing mania[0] got out of hand, then important jobs could be left undone and people starve or whatever. So if the notion that such behavior is bad is drilled into everyone's mind before being exposed, then they are more likely to avoid "catching" it. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_mania

polishdude20 4y ago
Oh yeah definitely. It's easier to just have a general learned feeling of a taboo than to have to explain to everyone the historical and societal consequences of it to every person. It's a learned behavior that helps perpetuate a higher survival rate not because the thing itself is bad if done a handful of times but because it can get out of hand and be done by the whole population.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
fncivivue7 4y ago
I've been starting to think the bible and other religions have their place due to this. Plot people on a bell curve, that's a lot of people that can't grasp basic nuance and critical reasoning.
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
There's no need for convoluted explanations. A good taboo, understood as a restriction on certain kinds of behavior or speech at least in certain circumstances, exists to protect some good. It's the same reason (or one of the reasons) we partition our houses into rooms by purpose. Human flourishing requires certain limits, not letting it all hang out. The latter is more akin to the liberal notion of freedom understood as "do what thou wilt" and limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires. The classical understanding of freedom is the ability to do what you ought. Guess which leads to happiness and which leads to misery.
- el_nahual 4y ago
  "limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom, that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term.
  - nordsieck 4y ago
    > "limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom, that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term. Could you explain more? From what I can tell, there is no inherent separation between freedom and debauchery aside from someone's judgement about whether particular choices where good for the person who made them.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      I'm not the parent, but I assume it's along the lines of a pretty famous quote by pope JP2: "Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." I think I agree with this on a certain level, but also debauchery is fun and can be useful.
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
      I enjoy some debauchery as much as or more than the next guy, but clearly the difference between freedom and debauchery is that people don't automatically go for debauchery just because they can, because we still have societal norms that most people follow most of the time. But we're free because we get to make that choice for ourselves.
      - GauntletWizard 4y ago
        Quite frankly, you're assuming facts not in evidence. An awful lot of people will go full debauchery; not everyone, but enough to be a problem.
ttpphd 4y ago
Taboo and stigma are also what drive irrational prejudices, so I'm not sure about the rush to judgment about, ummm, "important jobs" which definitely were not how society was organized during the vast majority of our evolution.
thrashh 4y ago
That makes it sound like it's intentional. I always thought it's just that there are things that you, personally, find weird and there are things you don't, and that it's heavily based on your upbringing, and because your neighbor will have a similar upbringing, both of you find the same things weird. When you hang with your neighbor, you will naturally shit on weird things, as we all like to do. A group of people automatically make up a society and so your society finds the exact same things weird and shits on the same things. And at no point in the process did you have any individuality or real thought in the matter -- usually at least. Society created your identity and you simply promote it. Over time, opinions change because things happen to society collectively, but it's a slow process.
conductr 4y ago
It’s like how religions tend to be similar and yet at their core are mostly emphasizing some ways to act and ways not to act. Often those ways tend to be similar. The result of mass compliance is a civilization larger than small tribes.
felipeerias 4y ago
There's a whole field studying how our cultural capacity to create culture is one of the key abilities of human beings as a species, and how the cultures that we create are themselves subject to evolutionary pressures. One good introduction is "The secret of our success" by Joseph Heinrich. There's a good review here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret-of-our-success/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret... I have developed a lot more respect for traditional cultures and religions as a result of adopting this perspective.

by goda90 4y ago

polishdude20 4y ago

Oh yeah definitely. It's easier to just have a general learned feeling of a taboo than to have to explain to everyone the historical and societal consequences of it to every person. It's a learned behavior that helps perpetuate a higher survival rate not because the thing itself is bad if done a handful of times but because it can get out of hand and be done by the whole population.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

fncivivue7 4y ago

I've been starting to think the bible and other religions have their place due to this. Plot people on a bell curve, that's a lot of people that can't grasp basic nuance and critical reasoning.

lo_zamoyski 4y ago

There's no need for convoluted explanations. A good taboo, understood as a restriction on certain kinds of behavior or speech at least in certain circumstances, exists to protect some good. It's the same reason (or one of the reasons) we partition our houses into rooms by purpose. Human flourishing requires certain limits, not letting it all hang out. The latter is more akin to the liberal notion of freedom understood as "do what thou wilt" and limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires. The classical understanding of freedom is the ability to do what you ought. Guess which leads to happiness and which leads to misery.

el_nahual 4y ago
"limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom, that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term.
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > "limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom, that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term. Could you explain more? From what I can tell, there is no inherent separation between freedom and debauchery aside from someone's judgement about whether particular choices where good for the person who made them.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I'm not the parent, but I assume it's along the lines of a pretty famous quote by pope JP2: "Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." I think I agree with this on a certain level, but also debauchery is fun and can be useful.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    I enjoy some debauchery as much as or more than the next guy, but clearly the difference between freedom and debauchery is that people don't automatically go for debauchery just because they can, because we still have societal norms that most people follow most of the time. But we're free because we get to make that choice for ourselves.
    - GauntletWizard 4y ago
      Quite frankly, you're assuming facts not in evidence. An awful lot of people will go full debauchery; not everyone, but enough to be a problem.

ttpphd 4y ago

Taboo and stigma are also what drive irrational prejudices, so I'm not sure about the rush to judgment about, ummm, "important jobs" which definitely were not how society was organized during the vast majority of our evolution.

thrashh 4y ago

That makes it sound like it's intentional. I always thought it's just that there are things that you, personally, find weird and there are things you don't, and that it's heavily based on your upbringing, and because your neighbor will have a similar upbringing, both of you find the same things weird. When you hang with your neighbor, you will naturally shit on weird things, as we all like to do. A group of people automatically make up a society and so your society finds the exact same things weird and shits on the same things. And at no point in the process did you have any individuality or real thought in the matter -- usually at least. Society created your identity and you simply promote it. Over time, opinions change because things happen to society collectively, but it's a slow process.

conductr 4y ago

It’s like how religions tend to be similar and yet at their core are mostly emphasizing some ways to act and ways not to act. Often those ways tend to be similar. The result of mass compliance is a civilization larger than small tribes.

felipeerias 4y ago

There's a whole field studying how our cultural capacity to create culture is one of the key abilities of human beings as a species, and how the cultures that we create are themselves subject to evolutionary pressures. One good introduction is "The secret of our success" by Joseph Heinrich. There's a good review here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret-of-our-success/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret... I have developed a lot more respect for traditional cultures and religions as a result of adopting this perspective.