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Ledger Stax – Hardware wallet with eInk display for digital assets
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y agoI just upgraded my Ledger. This is so much cooler but I can't justify buying it right now. I love e-ink and crypto
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- psychphysic 4y agoMakes sense, they've been emailing me 4 times per week. Clearly to get rid of old stock. Didn't even have the decency to delete my email from their spam list after hackers got my name address, phone number and that I have a ledger. No matter how much I unsubscribe from their mailing list.
- influxmoment 4y agoYep there are better wallets Passport is my recommended bitcoin wallet
- lxgr 4y agoWhy would you recommend that? It seems to expose private keys to non-secure hardware, if I'm reading the FAQ right.
- influxmoment 4y agoLink? The private key stays on the secure element
- lxgr 4y agoFrom https://docs.foundationdevices.com/en/faqs https://docs.foundationdevices.com/en/faqs: > Like Coldcard, the Bitcoin private keys are encrypted on the processor and stored on the secure element And from https://coldcard.com/docs/faq https://coldcard.com/docs/faq: > The ATECC608 is a fixed-function device for private key storage. [...] To be able to read the secrets (ie. wallet seed) out of the secure element [...] Finally, you can apparently just display it in the "advanced" menu: https://coldcard.com/docs/advanced https://coldcard.com/docs/advanced So it seems to me like the secure element limits PIN attempts, but when successfully enter it, the keys are indeed exposed to the main processor.
- influxmoment 4y agoExporting the key with the advanced menu is not a normal use for the signing device. It's an optional advanced feature
- lxgr 4y agoWhat prevents an attacker from using it?
- influxmoment 4y agoThe pin for the secure element storage from their info
- skazazes 4y agoIt's my experience that having had any crypto-adjacent accounts associated with my main email over the last decade has caused the single largest increase in email spam of anything I have ever done. I used to engage in the industry (in the mid to late 2010's when most trading was done through centralized exchanges) and it seems a few of the old platforms have leaked/lost/sold their email databases. I get ~2-3 emails daily now that I assume are all scams saying various things along the lines of "You have n free XYZ token waiting to be collected!" and "Ensure you update your ledger for the latest security patches! Here is a link to it! Please ignore that its not to an official ledger domain!" A lot of the spam seems to be either proxied through insecure wordpress comment plugins or simply signing my email up for accounts on random websites and somehow injecting their phishing attempts into the account confirmation emails. They come from all sorts of domains, most of which having nothing to do with crytpo, and nearly all of the messages are embedded in some sort of broken HTML email body. Although I no longer follow or have much interest in the industry, I am hesitant to outright blacklist crypto terms. Has anyone come up with a good solution to combating crypto email spam?
- hanniabu 4y ago> Has anyone come up with a good solution to combating crypto email spam? Yeah, stop using centralized services
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- CrackpotGonzo 4y agoThis form factor would be awesome for mini external hard drives!
- gojomo 4y agoBeautiful, but tip for Ledger team: pics & video should include more common items for size reference. Even placing alongside some-generic-iPhoneish-smartphone isn't a great help, as those now vary in size so much. Here's a thought, given its use: show it alongside some of the world's most-recognized fiat monies, like the USD bill or quarter, or several EUR bills/coins.
- Etheryte 4y agoI'm not sure I agree, I think the video's example of it's slightly smaller than a phone is more than enough. If I need more than that I can look at the specs which are also readily available further down the page.
- gojomo 4y agoSlightly smaller than which of the dozens of phones of varying sizes that look like that phone, which only appears for ~1 sec, 5/6ths of the way through a video many visitors won't play? Numerical specs are a poor substitute for a visual-intuitive sense of something's size, versus common referents. My suggestion is only if Ledger wants their product to be easily understandable to the largest possible audience of buyers. If they're only interested in the smaller subset of people for spend extra time digging, & can interpret numerical dimensions well (perhaps with the aid of rulers/etc), then being more obscure about its size makes sense.
- hammock 4y agoSize & Weight Credit card-sized. Dimensions: 85mm x 54mm x 6mm Weight: 45,2g
- neilv 4y agoBanana for scale.
- krono 4y agoMaybe they can manage to not leak all their customer data for a third time!
- capableweb 4y agoNot sure I missed some leak, but if you're referring to what I think you're referring to, it was a marketing newsletter email list that got leaked/hacked, not the customer shipping database or who owns a wallet. I for one doesn't see my email listed in the leak, I'm not subscribed to the newsletter but I do own a Ledger ordered directly from their website.
- krono 4y agoYes you missed two leaks, here are just some random articles about them: https://web.archive.org/web/20221030030843/https://cointelegraph.com/news/ledger-data-leak-a-simple-mistake-exposed-270k-crypto-wallet-buyers https://web.archive.org/web/20221030030843/https://cointeleg... https://web.archive.org/web/20220901153130/https://www.coindesk.com/business/2020/12/23/from-sim-swaps-to-home-invasion-threats-ledger-leak-has-cascading-consequences/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220901153130/https://www.coind... https://old.reddit.com/r/ledgerwalletleak/comments/ki1nsz/received_phone_call_threatening_kidnapping_and/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ledgerwalletleak/comments/ki1nsz/re... https://old.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/rts1w2/got_compromised_and_lost_over_120k_in_crypto_ama/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/rts1w2/got_... https://twitter.com/yeolddoc/status/1353139243548364805 https://twitter.com/yeolddoc/status/1353139243548364805
- throwup 4y agoSure it looks slick, but I worry about making these kinds of devices more complicated than they need to be. Especially if it has a battery inside. More complexity = more points of failure.
- ilaksh 4y agoLooks really cool. Too bad you can't read HN on it though. Just kidding.
- woodruffw 4y agoOne of the rules of thumb for long-term key storage (especially secure hardware storage) is parsimony: you don't want any unnecessary hardware or software (both because it makes the storage less resilient, and because it introduces additional security concerns). Given that, I'm not sure I understand why you'd put an e-Ink display (much less a JPEG parser, presumably, given the NFT stuff) on what should really just be an HSM. That seems like asking for trouble. Edit: Not to mention Bluetooth and wireless charging, apparently.
- popol12 4y agoSounds like you have never used hardware wallets, these are not just a yubikey with a button to push and a notification diode. Having a screen is essential to display information about the transactions you're going to sign . Recent blockchains and new bitcoin signing schemes tend to have big chunks of data that require screen estate to be validated by the signer, so the bigger the better. The nano S and nano X screen were a pain to use with their super small screens, this improvement is welcomed. About Bluetooth, well, that's simply a transport layer, like USB. Pretty convenient when you want to trigger a transaction from your phone. People don't necessarily use these devices with a cable and a laptop. I don't see a use for wireless charging. Maybe you can charge your wallet by placing it over your phone ?
- friend_and_foe 4y agoBluetooth is a wireless technology, and including it necessitates an onboard power source, a battery. This changes the security model a lot, an attacker now only needs proximity to the device, not physical access.
- hdevalence 4y agoNo, the attacker still needs physical access to the device, because signing requires on-device approval. The security model already assumes that the entity requesting authorization is untrusted, so the security model is basically unchanged. An attacker who can forge BT packets to submit bad data for approval is not really different from an attacker who compromises the laptop/phone/etc to submit bad data for approval.
- jmathai 4y agoI have the ledger nano. Turns out that I don't have a compelling use case for it even though I own some crypto. If I wanted liquidity in my crypto (to transfer or buy stuff) then I would just store my keys in my password manager which I seem to trust with the rest of my assets (I get crypto transactions are non-reversible). If I do not want liquidity then I really am better off writing/engraving my keys on something and into a safe. A combination of these two make the most sense for me.
- capableweb 4y agoI mostly use it for two purposes. 3rd factor for using my phone for cryptocurrency transactions and for a second validation of that the address, amount and data is correct, on a second device that is (theoretically) impossible to compromise and show something else.
- bioemerl 4y ago> I would just store my keys in my password manager The trouble here is the transfer of assets from the manager into your apps. Lots of opportunity for thefts or screw up. Imagine you use the clipboard and some random app happens to be scanning it.
- jmathai 4y agoValid. I've accepted much larger risk by storing all of my other sensitive information in my password manager though. What crypto needs is a form of 2FA - turns out I don't care enough to have another factor that's only useful for crypto.
- capableweb 4y agoJust as a FYI, Ledger also has a FIDO U2F application that I found useful for some things.
- abdullahkhalids 4y agoModern password managers don't use the clipboard any more. They register a virtual keyboard and use it it to type into the user/password box.
- szastamasta 4y agoI’m not really a crypto fan. But it’s a really neat device. A cool tech that has a creative use of e-ink. Something I wouldn’t mind keeping in my pocket.
- anonporridge 4y agoThe neat thing about crypto hardware wallets, is that they're essentially just private key storage and signing devices. Even if you never want to touch any cryptocurrency, the ubiquity of these devices could be a huge enabler for expanded use of end to end encryption like PGP or for simple second factor authentication like yubikeys. Of course, when you lock real money with it, the average person puts much more energy into ensuring good passcodes and backups.
- bonestamp2 4y agoThis looks neat, but even after reading their FAQ I don't understand the namesake feature -- why or when would I need more than one; and in that case, why is it a benefit that they snap together? I mean, is it just because it looks tidy/neat or is there a user story where this has additional value?
- bioemerl 4y agoI really want one of these with random games and little fun apps instead of crypto. It looks like an awesome PDA.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- josteink 4y agoIf I were into crypto, this might have been neat. But you know… if these guys thinks that crypto is a real currency and think you should use it for trade… Why do I have to pay for it using “real” money? They don’t really seem to be fully invested in what they’re selling.
- PretzelPirate 4y agoYou have multiple crypto payment options at check out.
- josteink 4y agoNot any options other than local currency offered when I checked earlier, nor when I checked again now. A crypto-wallet vendor is literally blocking crypto payments, even when they (according to you) support it (for some users)? I mean come on. That’s ridiculous?
- Kiro 4y agoAccording to your other comment you haven't even seen the payment page. If you had you would indeed see that you can pay with crypto even from Norway. You're conflating payment options with the display price.
- ChrisClark 4y agoYou can pay for it with many types of crypto. Not sure why you'd say this without checking first.
- josteink 4y ago> You can pay for it with many types of crypto. Not sure why you'd say this without checking first. I’ve added one to the cart and gone to checkout and literally gone all the way until I’m required to enter a shipping address and register an account. At no point yet have I been offered the option to pay in anything except local currency (NOK). If crypto payment is an option they are doing everything they can to keep it secret.
- achow 4y agoWired's coverage on this. Tony Fadell Is Trying to Build the iPod of Crypto https://www.wired.com/story/tony-fadell-is-trying-to-build-the-ipod-of-crypto-ledger-stax/ https://www.wired.com/story/tony-fadell-is-trying-to-build-t... In his (Tony Fadell's) mind, the wallet should be about the size of a credit card and have a touchscreen. ...envisioned people owning several wallets, one for each category of digital collecting or banking. He liked the concept of stacking them on top of each other, like a cash bundle of $100 bills. He came up with the idea of having magnets to snap the units into a tidy stack. That feature provided the name for the device: Stax.
- egypturnash 4y agoSo don't keep this anywhere near your actual wallet unless you are 100% sure your life is 100% free of any need to ever swipe a magstrip from anything else that lives in your wallet, then? Awesome.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- nothasan 4y agoOff-topic but what do you think they used here to render the UI. Qt?
- popol12 4y agohome made framework like the previous devices, I'd say. The UI is running directly in the secure element (~1.5MB flash, ~50kb ram) so it's very memory constrained.
- lxgr 4y agoI'd be really surprised if they can pull that off. My guess is on a two-chip architecture [1] like for the original Nano S (non-plus). [1] https://developers.ledger.com/docs/nano-app/bolos-hardware-architecture/ https://developers.ledger.com/docs/nano-app/bolos-hardware-a...
- rahen 4y agoPrevious submission (Wired): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33884793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33884793 The Stax is designed by Tony Fadell, creator of the iPod.
- Ninjinka 4y agoI have no need for another hardware wallet, but this is a beautiful device. Edit: Ah, Tony Fadell, makes sense.
- efitz 4y agoI trust hardware wallets inversely to the amount of software they have on them. This one looks really cool and I like the features but I will never buy one because too many features and too much connectivity.
- zephraph 4y agoI have no need for this device but it's definitely pretty. I love the wrap around e-ink. It looks kind of like an e-ink book cover. Cool project, gorgeous design. Would love to see more design iteration in different categories like this.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y agoReally cool, but $279. That’s about double what I would pay.
- SpaceManNabs 4y agoI wish this website would make the case for what it offers beyond the Ledger Nano X as easily as they did previously. From what I can tell, I am just staying to my ledger nano x because I am not interested in NFTs yet (or ever if they never become useful beyond gaming).
- pclmulqdq 4y agoI'm not sure they're even useful in gaming. The NFT games of 2020 have all collapsed, and there was huge backlash among gamers against normal games incorporating NFTs.
- ferminaut 4y agoI bought a wallet from Ledger once. Ledger then got hacked & now I get texts weekly with different crypto scams targeted at me. Never again.
- drexlspivey 4y agoA way to avoid this is to use your own domain for email and signup with a unique email for every site
- MivLives 4y agoThat doesn't work with phone numbers.
- kube-system 4y agoI get Ledger phishing all the time and I've never been a customer of theirs.
- georgyo 4y agoI also bought one and never will again. The USB port and the left button had a short somewhere. Everytime you plugged it in, it would rapidly trigger the left button. Two months of support for them and they kept making my jump through hoops, including uploading a YouTube video of the problem. And still the best the can say is "It's the USB-C cable, use a different one." I tried 8 cables, including the one that shipped with it, and 4 different computers. Same failure every time. I had to file a claim with my payment processor because they would not refund me either. Another month I and finally got refunded. Never ever again.
- olalonde 4y agoYou can buy one through Amazon.
- llampx 4y agoWith Amazon's fakes problem, I wouldn't dare
- friend_and_foe 4y agoWhat in the fuck is this company doing? They're supposed to be marketing security oriented hardware, not hype and flash and accessories. Their app is full of all sorts of affiliate nonsense, they're bloating coin specific applications to deliberately make their original product obsolete, now they have a good idea, an e-ink display, and they're packaging it like this? Marketing it like this? They must be desperate for money.
- dennyabraham 4y agoAside from their use with crypto, these are just nice looking pieces of hardware. Is there any word on whether you'll be able to run custom code on these?
- lxgr 4y agoThe details don't seem to be available yet, but this seems like a surprising departure from Ledger's current offerings, which emphasize running both key operations and the user interface to verify and confirm them on secure hardware [1]. At least I can't imagine how it would be possible to run a complex e-ink display and touchscreen from a minimal trusted computing base running on tamper-proof hardware. My suspicion is that they'll use a model more similar to their original offerings, running key operations on secure hardware, but delegating both I/O and the user interface to a non (or rather not as) trusted "main CPU" [2], which enables certain attacks [3]. But unfortunately, these important architectural details seem to be lost on most crypto users, promoters/influencers, and even wallet manufacturers, so I guess Ledger is trying to catch up on form – at the expense of function (which I consider security to be, for a hardware wallet). [1] https://www.ledger.com/enhancing-the-ledger-nano-xs-security https://www.ledger.com/enhancing-the-ledger-nano-xs-security [2] https://developers.ledger.com/docs/nano-app/bolos-hardware-architecture/ https://developers.ledger.com/docs/nano-app/bolos-hardware-a... [3] https://saleemrashid.com/2018/03/20/breaking-ledger-security-model/ https://saleemrashid.com/2018/03/20/breaking-ledger-security...
- nicbou 4y agoBeautiful product with a crystal clear pitch. I'm not into crypto, but I think that this is a great product page.