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> and can be enjoyed on iPhone, iPad, and the new Apple TV 4K But the old Apple TV 4K is not powerful enough for displaying text on a TV, even though any old i

> and can be enjoyed on iPhone, iPad, and the new Apple TV 4K But the old Apple TV 4K is not powerful enough for displaying text on a TV, even though any old iPhone is? I get that they want to push device and service adoption but they should pick a lane, either push users to upgrade devices, or push to sign up to paid services. Pushing for both at the same time is greedy.

ricardojoaoreis 4y ago
That line stood out, powerful enough for 3D games but not for Karaoke…
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  3D games don't involve on-device ML. Using GPU's for ML is not very efficient on low-power devices. Having dedicated ML circuitry is the way to go.
surewe 4y ago
I'd imagine/hope that it's also supported on the previous generation, just that they'd rather advertise its usage on the new one. Edit: per the bottom of the page... > Apple Music Sing will be available on all compatible iPhone and iPad models as well as the new Apple TV 4K. :/ maybe they do ML to process stuff on-device, per other comments' speculation, that justifies requiring the newer model?
- pilsetnieks 4y ago
  iPhone 8 that is the oldest supported for iOS 16 has an A11 chip; the second gen 4K has A12. The first gen 4K has an A10X chip - maybe it needs the "Neural Engine" that first appeared in A11 but the 2nd gen does have it. In addition, the Apple TV is plugged in, it doesn't have to limit its power for battery reasons.
MBCook 4y ago
The old Apple TV 4K can show lyrics today. I’d fully expect it to get this feature. Probably the HD as well. This seems like it might be Apple‘s standard thing of just promoting whatever their newest products are in all communications.
- soggylaundry 4y ago
  > just promoting whatever their newest products are in all communications. ...which leads to users upgrading their devices I mean, it's not a bad marketing strategy when most people who can afford an apple device already have 1+
crazygringo 4y ago
It's not explicit, but from the descriptions it seems to suggest it's performing recognition of the audio streams of what's being sung, and even supports dual streams for duets. So I wouldn't be surprised if it relies on a particular hardware chip that the older Apple TV simply doesn't have. That has definitely been the case for everything Apple has launched with regards to Spatial Audio.
- notpushkin 4y ago
  > It's not explicit, but from the descriptions it seems to suggest it's performing recognition of the audio streams of what's being sung, and even supports dual streams for duets. Just curious: what in the article makes you think that?
  - imchillyb 4y ago
    Not OP, but... Look at the list of what Apple Sing includes: Adjustable vocals: Users now have control over a song’s vocal levels. They can sing with the original artist vocals, take the lead, or mix it up on millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog. Real-time lyrics: Users can sing along to their favorite songs with animated lyrics that dance to the rhythm of the vocals. Background vocals: Vocal lines sung simultaneously can animate independently from the main vocals to make it easier for users to follow. Duet view: Multiple vocalists show on opposite sides of the screen to make duets or multi-singer tracks easy to sing along to. ------ The part of the article where they state these things explicitly...
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      They don't state anything explicitly referring to real-time processing of the songs. As a matter of fact, calling out "millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog" actually makes it seem like the adjustable vocals will only be available on certain songs that they've added support for.
      - 9dev 4y ago
alewi481 4y ago
It seems that limiting new headline software features to the latest hardware release is the direction that Apple is going lately. The most recent examples that comes to mind are the always-on display in the new iPhone 14 and the hover mode in the new iPad Pro.
- dagmx 4y ago
  Listing always on display as just a software feature is odd. It’s very much a function of both software and hardware. It requires new screens and display controllers that can refresh at much lower rates, and stronger guarantees of burn in prevention. Like sure, you could do it on an older screen but you’d burn through battery much quicker and potentially damage the device in the process. This is true for Android devices as well.
- brookst 4y ago
  You think it's a coincidence that the first iPhone with AOD is also the first one with a LTPO display? If so, why did Apple wait until the 14? If it's just an artificial limitation, wouldn't it have made more sense to do for the XS or the 7 or whatever? It's generally preferable to pull revenue forward, not hold it back for years.
mihaaly 4y ago
Probably some would choose not to upgrade devices and not to sign up to services and then they could put their greed where it belongs. I am getting fed up by the user hostile attitude of producers and providers, maybe I will just keep my money or spend elsewhere.
- mihaaly 4y ago
  ... it is very peculiar that when I write a less than flattering thing about Apple, even when it is just partly relevant, certain people start to downvote my opinion. Only when it is about Apple btw, do not happen about something else. Weird kind of devotees.
smohnot 4y ago
It uses an “on-device machine learning algorithm that processes the music in real-time.” Perhaps it doesn’t work as well on the old Apple TV? Or just an excuse.
zorrolovsky 4y ago
> either push users to upgrade devices, or push to sign up to paid services. Pushing for both at the same time is greedy. Pushing users to upgrade devices is unethical and harmful. Apple does it all the time and they should be held accountable for that. Discarding old devices and creating new ones destroys the environment and increases pollution. The best device is the device you already own! Their successful business strategy results in environmental destruction and other issues. Wh
- brookst 4y ago
  Apple products have longer lifespans than competitors'[0]. There's just a secondary market, which is more environmentally efficient. It's a very different world, so it's understandable that people not in the Apple ecosystem see "buy a new iPad" as synonymous with "throw old iPad in trash." But that's not what happens at all. The actual devices go on being used for a very long time. But ignoring that for a moment, are you proposing that companies shouldn't improve hardware because it leads to software features that don't work on old devices, which leads to old devices being thrown away? That doesn't feel right to me. [0] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016142434.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016142434.h...
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    I wish that Apple would expand its recycling intake program. During the lockdown, I had several Apple products that I wanted to bring to the store for disposal, but Apple wasn't taking any devices at all. Then, once the restrictions were lifted, I found out that only one of the six Apple Stores in my area takes devices, and it was an hour away. It seems to me that every Apple retail location should take back devices.
    - brookst 4y ago
      Very much agreed. That seems like something easy to fix.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
jahewson 4y ago
It’s just marketing copy. They’re reminding everybody that there’s a new Apple TV 4K, not that this feature won’t work on the old one.
busymom0 4y ago
Just like they don’t allow always on display for iPhones prior to the latest 14.
anonuser123456 4y ago
> But the old Apple TV 4K is not powerful enough for displaying text on a TV, even though any old iPhone is? Honestly, it might not be. My Apple TV 4k seems slow as molasses with performance more like an AMLogic 905. Not sure if it’s because it doesn’t have enough RAM, the flash is slow or the CPU is just way under powered. Yes, they advertise it as an A12Z or whatever, but it’s a binned part that wasn’t acceptable for a phone.
- js2 4y ago
  I have owned nearly every generation of Apple TV. Other than the original model, I wouldn't describe any of them as slow as molasses. On the contrary, they are consistently the fastest streaming devices I've owned, and I'm comparing to things like Roku (built-in to a TCL), FireTV, and Android TV across a number of devices (Shield Pro, Hisense U6G, Zidoo Z9X). (Technically the Zidoo uses Android, not Android TV.) I currently own all three generations of the Apple TV 4K. All of them are snappy devices. Now that said, I use them for streaming video only, both a variety of services as well as use Infuse for streaming from my NAS.
  - anonuser123456 4y ago
    >they are consistently the fastest streaming devices I've owned, As someone that works on set top box / streaming chips, I don’t think you realize how low that bar is :P The prev gen ATV 4k is clearly superior, I’m not disputing that. But ‘snappy’ is a relative term. I expect a lot more out of a device sporting the chip it has. I regularly get input lag, stalled apps (that the system cannot recover from for some time), bursted input (like it doesn’t debounce queued remote inputs after stalling) There are systems level issues that remain unaddressed, and I speculate they are due to hardware bottlenecks somewhere .
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Yeah, I switched from a Shield to the prior gen of Apple TV 4K in part because the Shield was often laggy as hell (also the UI layout was a mess, also the damn ads, also it was significantly buggier) and AFAIK that's about the most powerful non-Apple box on the market. ATV's way better on that front. Frankly a low-end-but-not-quite-bottom-end Roku machine feels snappier and more-reliable than the Shield did (though not as good as the Apple TV)
js2 4y ago
> any old iPhone is The note at the bottom reads: "Apple Music Sing will be available on all compatible iPhone and iPad models as well as the new Apple TV 4K". Maybe it requires the Neural Engine that was added with the A11 and opened to third-party apps with the A12. (Sep 2018). But that should still allow the Apple TV 4K (second generation) which uses the A12. iPhones/iPads with the A12 or newer are the iPhone XS/XR, iPad Mini (5th generation), iPad Air (3rd generation), and iPad (8th generation). The iPhone SE (2nd generation) uses the A13 so that should be compatible too.
fundad 4y ago
With the FTC watching Apple so hard it’s funny to see contrarians like “meh impossible that it’s a hardware limitation”
wintermutestwin 4y ago
What's worse is that the Apple Music app on Mac doesn't even have lyrics (and is ridiculously bad in many other ways). It feels like they are slowly abandoning the platform.
- kemayo 4y ago
  ...it does have lyrics. Look for the lyrics button in the top-right of the window.
- ultrarunner 4y ago
  It does in the MiniPlayer
- acdha 4y ago
  It does support Lyrics: Control-Command-U will toggle display. If you use the Help menu's search feature it will direct you to the “Show Lyrics” option, too.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  Have you used an Apple Silicon macbook of any version? THey're clearly NOT abandoning the platform, because they are kick ass.
pwthornton 4y ago
I am not convinced it won't work on multiple models. They don't actually provide a list of supported devices. The language here is unclear. At first, I thought it meant that this only was on the current Apple TV 4K, but then I thought it might just be marketing speak to get people to buy Apple TVs. But maybe the jump from the A12 to the A15 does provide something that makes this possible. The only thing I can think of is the neural engine (although that first debuted in the A11).
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
More likely they're falling victim to their own insistence that the past doesn't matter and OS fragmentation.
cschep 4y ago
What if the top comment wasn't the MOST cynical take possible at any given time? :D What is cool about HN though is that maybe an Apple engineer will show up anonymously and give us the low down about why. In my short experience at Apple there were plenty of problems but NOT shipping things to customers to make money was not even remotely one of them. Bending over backwards on ancient radars to support the iPhone 6 sucks up an enormous amount of time!
SkyPuncher 4y ago
I'm noticing this trend out of Apple on nearly all of their devices. I understand it, but worried about where it's trending towards.

ricardojoaoreis 4y ago

That line stood out, powerful enough for 3D games but not for Karaoke…

diebeforei485 4y ago
3D games don't involve on-device ML. Using GPU's for ML is not very efficient on low-power devices. Having dedicated ML circuitry is the way to go.

surewe 4y ago

I'd imagine/hope that it's also supported on the previous generation, just that they'd rather advertise its usage on the new one. Edit: per the bottom of the page... > Apple Music Sing will be available on all compatible iPhone and iPad models as well as the new Apple TV 4K. :/ maybe they do ML to process stuff on-device, per other comments' speculation, that justifies requiring the newer model?

pilsetnieks 4y ago
iPhone 8 that is the oldest supported for iOS 16 has an A11 chip; the second gen 4K has A12. The first gen 4K has an A10X chip - maybe it needs the "Neural Engine" that first appeared in A11 but the 2nd gen does have it. In addition, the Apple TV is plugged in, it doesn't have to limit its power for battery reasons.

MBCook 4y ago

The old Apple TV 4K can show lyrics today. I’d fully expect it to get this feature. Probably the HD as well. This seems like it might be Apple‘s standard thing of just promoting whatever their newest products are in all communications.

soggylaundry 4y ago
> just promoting whatever their newest products are in all communications. ...which leads to users upgrading their devices I mean, it's not a bad marketing strategy when most people who can afford an apple device already have 1+

crazygringo 4y ago

It's not explicit, but from the descriptions it seems to suggest it's performing recognition of the audio streams of what's being sung, and even supports dual streams for duets. So I wouldn't be surprised if it relies on a particular hardware chip that the older Apple TV simply doesn't have. That has definitely been the case for everything Apple has launched with regards to Spatial Audio.

notpushkin 4y ago
> It's not explicit, but from the descriptions it seems to suggest it's performing recognition of the audio streams of what's being sung, and even supports dual streams for duets. Just curious: what in the article makes you think that?
- imchillyb 4y ago
  Not OP, but... Look at the list of what Apple Sing includes: Adjustable vocals: Users now have control over a song’s vocal levels. They can sing with the original artist vocals, take the lead, or mix it up on millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog. Real-time lyrics: Users can sing along to their favorite songs with animated lyrics that dance to the rhythm of the vocals. Background vocals: Vocal lines sung simultaneously can animate independently from the main vocals to make it easier for users to follow. Duet view: Multiple vocalists show on opposite sides of the screen to make duets or multi-singer tracks easy to sing along to. ------ The part of the article where they state these things explicitly...
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    They don't state anything explicitly referring to real-time processing of the songs. As a matter of fact, calling out "millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog" actually makes it seem like the adjustable vocals will only be available on certain songs that they've added support for.
    - 9dev 4y ago

alewi481 4y ago

It seems that limiting new headline software features to the latest hardware release is the direction that Apple is going lately. The most recent examples that comes to mind are the always-on display in the new iPhone 14 and the hover mode in the new iPad Pro.

dagmx 4y ago
Listing always on display as just a software feature is odd. It’s very much a function of both software and hardware. It requires new screens and display controllers that can refresh at much lower rates, and stronger guarantees of burn in prevention. Like sure, you could do it on an older screen but you’d burn through battery much quicker and potentially damage the device in the process. This is true for Android devices as well.
brookst 4y ago
You think it's a coincidence that the first iPhone with AOD is also the first one with a LTPO display? If so, why did Apple wait until the 14? If it's just an artificial limitation, wouldn't it have made more sense to do for the XS or the 7 or whatever? It's generally preferable to pull revenue forward, not hold it back for years.

mihaaly 4y ago

Probably some would choose not to upgrade devices and not to sign up to services and then they could put their greed where it belongs. I am getting fed up by the user hostile attitude of producers and providers, maybe I will just keep my money or spend elsewhere.

mihaaly 4y ago
... it is very peculiar that when I write a less than flattering thing about Apple, even when it is just partly relevant, certain people start to downvote my opinion. Only when it is about Apple btw, do not happen about something else. Weird kind of devotees.

smohnot 4y ago

It uses an “on-device machine learning algorithm that processes the music in real-time.” Perhaps it doesn’t work as well on the old Apple TV? Or just an excuse.

zorrolovsky 4y ago

> either push users to upgrade devices, or push to sign up to paid services. Pushing for both at the same time is greedy. Pushing users to upgrade devices is unethical and harmful. Apple does it all the time and they should be held accountable for that. Discarding old devices and creating new ones destroys the environment and increases pollution. The best device is the device you already own! Their successful business strategy results in environmental destruction and other issues. Wh

brookst 4y ago
Apple products have longer lifespans than competitors'[0]. There's just a secondary market, which is more environmentally efficient. It's a very different world, so it's understandable that people not in the Apple ecosystem see "buy a new iPad" as synonymous with "throw old iPad in trash." But that's not what happens at all. The actual devices go on being used for a very long time. But ignoring that for a moment, are you proposing that companies shouldn't improve hardware because it leads to software features that don't work on old devices, which leads to old devices being thrown away? That doesn't feel right to me. [0] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016142434.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016142434.h...
- reaperducer 4y ago
  I wish that Apple would expand its recycling intake program. During the lockdown, I had several Apple products that I wanted to bring to the store for disposal, but Apple wasn't taking any devices at all. Then, once the restrictions were lifted, I found out that only one of the six Apple Stores in my area takes devices, and it was an hour away. It seems to me that every Apple retail location should take back devices.
  - brookst 4y ago
    Very much agreed. That seems like something easy to fix.
yamtaddle 4y ago

jahewson 4y ago

It’s just marketing copy. They’re reminding everybody that there’s a new Apple TV 4K, not that this feature won’t work on the old one.

busymom0 4y ago

Just like they don’t allow always on display for iPhones prior to the latest 14.

anonuser123456 4y ago

> But the old Apple TV 4K is not powerful enough for displaying text on a TV, even though any old iPhone is? Honestly, it might not be. My Apple TV 4k seems slow as molasses with performance more like an AMLogic 905. Not sure if it’s because it doesn’t have enough RAM, the flash is slow or the CPU is just way under powered. Yes, they advertise it as an A12Z or whatever, but it’s a binned part that wasn’t acceptable for a phone.

js2 4y ago
I have owned nearly every generation of Apple TV. Other than the original model, I wouldn't describe any of them as slow as molasses. On the contrary, they are consistently the fastest streaming devices I've owned, and I'm comparing to things like Roku (built-in to a TCL), FireTV, and Android TV across a number of devices (Shield Pro, Hisense U6G, Zidoo Z9X). (Technically the Zidoo uses Android, not Android TV.) I currently own all three generations of the Apple TV 4K. All of them are snappy devices. Now that said, I use them for streaming video only, both a variety of services as well as use Infuse for streaming from my NAS.
- anonuser123456 4y ago
  >they are consistently the fastest streaming devices I've owned, As someone that works on set top box / streaming chips, I don’t think you realize how low that bar is :P The prev gen ATV 4k is clearly superior, I’m not disputing that. But ‘snappy’ is a relative term. I expect a lot more out of a device sporting the chip it has. I regularly get input lag, stalled apps (that the system cannot recover from for some time), bursted input (like it doesn’t debounce queued remote inputs after stalling) There are systems level issues that remain unaddressed, and I speculate they are due to hardware bottlenecks somewhere .
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yeah, I switched from a Shield to the prior gen of Apple TV 4K in part because the Shield was often laggy as hell (also the UI layout was a mess, also the damn ads, also it was significantly buggier) and AFAIK that's about the most powerful non-Apple box on the market. ATV's way better on that front. Frankly a low-end-but-not-quite-bottom-end Roku machine feels snappier and more-reliable than the Shield did (though not as good as the Apple TV)

js2 4y ago

> any old iPhone is The note at the bottom reads: "Apple Music Sing will be available on all compatible iPhone and iPad models as well as the new Apple TV 4K". Maybe it requires the Neural Engine that was added with the A11 and opened to third-party apps with the A12. (Sep 2018). But that should still allow the Apple TV 4K (second generation) which uses the A12. iPhones/iPads with the A12 or newer are the iPhone XS/XR, iPad Mini (5th generation), iPad Air (3rd generation), and iPad (8th generation). The iPhone SE (2nd generation) uses the A13 so that should be compatible too.

fundad 4y ago

With the FTC watching Apple so hard it’s funny to see contrarians like “meh impossible that it’s a hardware limitation”

wintermutestwin 4y ago

What's worse is that the Apple Music app on Mac doesn't even have lyrics (and is ridiculously bad in many other ways). It feels like they are slowly abandoning the platform.

kemayo 4y ago
...it does have lyrics. Look for the lyrics button in the top-right of the window.
ultrarunner 4y ago
It does in the MiniPlayer
acdha 4y ago
It does support Lyrics: Control-Command-U will toggle display. If you use the Help menu's search feature it will direct you to the “Show Lyrics” option, too.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
Have you used an Apple Silicon macbook of any version? THey're clearly NOT abandoning the platform, because they are kick ass.

pwthornton 4y ago

I am not convinced it won't work on multiple models. They don't actually provide a list of supported devices. The language here is unclear. At first, I thought it meant that this only was on the current Apple TV 4K, but then I thought it might just be marketing speak to get people to buy Apple TVs. But maybe the jump from the A12 to the A15 does provide something that makes this possible. The only thing I can think of is the neural engine (although that first debuted in the A11).

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

More likely they're falling victim to their own insistence that the past doesn't matter and OS fragmentation.

cschep 4y ago

What if the top comment wasn't the MOST cynical take possible at any given time? :D What is cool about HN though is that maybe an Apple engineer will show up anonymously and give us the low down about why. In my short experience at Apple there were plenty of problems but NOT shipping things to customers to make money was not even remotely one of them. Bending over backwards on ancient radars to support the iPhone 6 sucks up an enormous amount of time!

SkyPuncher 4y ago

I'm noticing this trend out of Apple on nearly all of their devices. I understand it, but worried about where it's trending towards.