7 ms·

Update on JetBrains’ Statement on Ukraine

98 points by belzebub 4y ago

eitland 4y ago
If this is correct, and it looks like it is: Good! 2022 has been a bad year for first Russia, then Iran and China and I hope they'll come crashing down, mostly because of the courage of Ukrainians as well as Iranian and Chinese citizens, but also because of actions like this. Good work Jetbrains!
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Now if only people in USA had courage to stand up and start prosecuting those behind drone strikes and invasions of Iraq and Afganistan.
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    Both were dictatorships and terrorist nations. Not even close to equivalent. Ukraine is a democracy of 45 million people that's never threatened another nation.
    - my_city 4y ago
      Lol. The USA is the premier terrorist nation in the world, they funded Al-Qaeda and countless anti-communist militias and right-wing terrorist cells across the world. So according to your definition, the USA deserves to be invaded, since they are "a terrorist nation". Also, Ukraine has not been a real democracy for a long time. The communist party is banned (https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/07/05/ukraine-banned-the-communist-party/ https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/07/05/ukraine-banned-the-commu...), Zelensky banned opposition parties (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine-suspend-11-pro-russia-parties https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine...) and opposing media (https://europeanjournalists.org/blog/2021/08/26/ukraine-president-bans-opposition-media-strana-ua-and-sanctions-editor-in-chief/ https://europeanjournalists.org/blog/2021/08/26/ukraine-pres...). Also, can you get more sadistic in your message? Afghanistan and Iraq also had million of people who suffered tremendously from the criminal, genocidical invasion of their homeland. Ukraine is a developed nation, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, all the countries that the American Empire invaded were poor, underdeveloped and were already suffering without a war. Is disgusting how little value the lives of "poor brown people" have in the eyes of "the West".
      - mtnGoat 4y ago
        Maybe we can talk about the millions of Uighur China has stashed away in concentration camps? The Chinese don’t exactly have clean hands either there bud. They have millions of their own citizens suffering, and dying, by their own governments hands. If I were you, I’d choose other talking points when attempting to attack the west.
      - Mikeb85 4y ago
        Afghanistan has suffered greatly under the Taliban. Ask the women there how their lives are... As for Iraq, ask Iranians how they feel about Saddam? Or the Kuwaitis? Or the Kurds? Or the many dissidents that Saddam murdered... And Ukraine didn't ban opposition parties, it's obvious you know nothing about their politics. They literally only banned parties that were ACTIVELY helping the Russians kill their own people. All the non-treasonous parties are still there. Also, every western country has special wartime laws. And considering Ukraine has had 3 different parties in power from the last 3 elections, you could argue they're among the most democratic countries...
    - janef0421 4y ago
      I find the claim that Ukraine is a "democracy" questionable considering the handling of the conflict in Donbas. Rather than allowing devolution of powers to the region, so that the predominantly Russian-speaking people of those regions can make local laws that reflect their interests, they have pursued a devastating 8 year long war. During the cause of this war, they have repeatedly reneged on promises made in treaties and deployed large neo-nazi militias, who view their activity in Donbas as part of an anti-slav race war. I do not think such actions are compatible with democracy.
      - Mikeb85 4y ago
        Straight up propaganda here. You omitted the fact that Russia invaded Donbas 8 years ago. Also it's funny that Russia's "liberation" looks like mass murder, rape, genocide, kidnapping children and bombing apartments and hospitals... > part of an anti-slav race war. This is straight up hilarious since Ukrainian language is far closer to other Slavic languages than to Russian. Also Russia's been selling this war to Muslim minorities as a chance to "kill Slavs".
    - graymatters 4y ago
      As an independent nation Ukraine committed actual genocide against other ethnic religious population within its borders at least 3 times. 2 of them during the 20th century. Ukraine never acknowledged those, neither took responsibility, nor expressed any form of regret. If you think Ukraine is morally any better than Russia than you know no history. While very much against the invasion of Russia into Ukraine, Ukrainians should not be helped until they express genuine repentance for their historic crimes.
      - ashwagary 4y ago
        Even worse, many locals still celebrate the thought leaders behind some of the genocidal activities in Ukraine.
      - reitanqild 4y ago
        For some reason it seems Russia and Ukraine diverge sharply after 1991, and for some reason, Ukrainian authorities today enjoy strong support from all ethnic religious minorities and majorities, including amazingly both Atheists, Christians from various groups, Jews and Muslims. That is pretty impressive. Notable exception: the FSB "branch of the Orthodox Church" that is under direct leadership of "Patriarch" Kiril, a former(???) FSB personality who still need to edit away luxury watches from his photos...
      - Mikeb85 4y ago
        Can't even give an example? Because every non-Russian historian would say otherwise... Exhibit A: Holodomor.
    - random314 4y ago
      > Both were dictatorships and terrorist nations. Not even close to equivalent. The invasion of Iraq was launched through Saudi Arabia. Another great democracy!
  - reitanqild 4y ago
    One thing can be right without the other being wrong. I personally welcome criticism against USA as long as it isn't based on hate of USA but on general ideas. Very simplified: one should be ready to be proportionally critical to everyone else. For a practical example: I do not find it useful to listen to people who criticize USA (43000 dead civilians in Afghanistan in 20 years) while being utterly silent on Soviet Russia (somewhere between 500 000 and 2 500 000 dead in 10 years, sometimes in ways that make drone strikes look very civil). Or, if you say Soviet Russia is long ago (it isn't, many of us grew up in its shadows), it seems Russia has already killed more civilians in Ukraine in 10 months than US killed civilians in Afghanistan in 20 years. This of course comes on top of what they did and still do in Syria etc. Edit: I personally very much hope both: - that the parts of US that haven't realized how much crazy some Americans have done abroad. I understand it will be very very hard to bring to justice those who are responsible, but at least find a way to make sure no nore weddings are bombed with precision guided weapons. - that others who hate everything US is and stand for will at some point take a step back and realize how many people can thank American action for their lives.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - mempko 4y ago
      Ok, but A million dead Iraqis. Afghanistan was childs play for the US. In fact, US sanctions against Iraq starved 500,000 children. Both governments, Russia and US, are war machines. As far as I'm aware, not a single large US software company left the US because of those wars. JetBrains is amazing by any standard.
- my_city 4y ago
  - bennysonething 4y ago
    What is imperialist about that particular opinion?
    - my_city 4y ago
      - mint2 4y ago
        Keep in mind that By posting such hyperbolic and unsupported statements, the other comments posted are viewed with the same level of credibility.
        bilbyx 4y ago
        Brian Berletic from The New Atlas had already supported the claim that the US administration wanting to destablise and destroy China using official US government documents as evidence many times over. The truth is out in the open for all to find. The question is, do you want to know the truth.
        mint2 4y ago
        Yes and according to Russian investigative reporters, Ukraine has been proven to be run by nazis. The truth is out there open for all to find! The question is do you want to know the truth. Are readers supposed to take name dropping of a random fringe guy from a fringe source to mean anything other than the original point should be taken even more skeptically.
      - Larrikin 4y ago
        You keep equating Chinese people, Chinese government, and Chinese history. Those three are not exactly the same thing, no matter how much Xi and the Communists try to push that ideology on the world.
Proven 4y ago
cutler 4y ago
dagmx 4y ago
I really appreciate that they both have a strong moral stance on this and put their money and efforts behind it. No doubt that sanctions play into it to some degree but sanctions also don’t require such strong words and actions, which I think really show how they really stand behind what they say.
mechanical_bear 4y ago
Слава Україні! Excellent follow through on Jetbrains part!
tailspin2019 4y ago
As a JetBrains customer, I’m really pleased to read this. Sounds like this has been a significant undertaking.
yashg 4y ago
Good to see a company genuinely caring for its employees. We idolise psychopaths who treat people working for them like slaves and lesser humans. Such companies and founders need to be appreciated and applauded. These are the kind of folks I’d like to do business with.
my_city 4y ago
Hope you move out of USA the next time that country starts a war of agression under the pretext of "fighting terrorism" or whatever excuse they come up with.
- bilbyx 4y ago
  It's disappointing that JetBrains did not move out of Ukraine when the country started a war of aggression against the Russian people in the eastern breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, where thousands of Russians were killed since 2014. Why the double standard?
  - nora-puchreiner 4y ago
    If we set aside moralizing, and take only the facts, then: 1. the company moved to countries with higher multipliers (i.e. with the same profit, the Dutch or German company is worth several times more than the Russian one). The current outbreak of Russophobia and panic associated with sanctions has given a unique chance to do such a relocation. They write that 800 employees agreed to move in 2022. How many would have agreed in 2021 or 2014? 2. in Russia, quite a few of the employees are local citizens. Some of them had their own homes. By getting a better offer, they could change jobs in 2 weeks. In Holland (Cyprus, Germany, ...), they need a residence permit for 1 year, tied to a specific employer. If they decide to change jobs, the new employer has to go through a months-long bureaucratic process, comparable to the process of initial migration from Russia - and this process does not guarantee a successful conclusion. And all these months they will have to pay for rented housing. And the previous (1 year, remember?) permit can expire during this process, which threatens deportation. That is, the employees have become much more dependent on the company, they will not scatter in the event of a major reorganization, cost-cutting (for the sake of morality and democracy, of course), etc. This all looks like preparation for the sale of JetBrains. I would bet that this will happen in the coming months. The difference between 2014 and 2022 is somewhere in here, not in who attacked whom and when. (the above is a subjective perception of their text and pure speculations, based on personal experience in a similar relocation of an IT company from Russia to EU short before 2014)
bennysonething 4y ago
I've read various reports of Russians getting a hard time in Europe (woman slapped in face on the street while speaking russian on her phone). Reminded me that Russians escaping Russia are refugees too.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  > Reminded me that Russians escaping Russia are refugees too. They're dissidents, not refugees. Their country isn't being attacked nor under invasion.
- The_Colonel 4y ago
  This probably happens on a miniscule scale, given the big Russian diaspora in Europe. There are also practical "problems" - a westerner (even western Slavic speaker) has no chance to distinguish Ukrainian language from Russian (or even Russian speaking Ukrainian).
  - unsupp0rted 4y ago
    Also… speaking Russian in public shouldn’t sentence a person to be hated, much less slapped across the face. Oh you were born into a family that speaks the evil tongue? Off with your head, unless there’s some confusion it’s Ukrainian, in which case you’re safe.
  - reitanqild 4y ago
    Practical tip: If person says да (da) for "yes" I think they speak Russian. I think Ukrainians use так for "yes". (Someone please confirm or correct me, but I am 90 something percent sure.) (Edit: looked it up and yes, I think I am right: https://www.ukrainianlessons.com/meanings-of-tak/ https://www.ukrainianlessons.com/meanings-of-tak/. That said, Russian also have the word так, so try to infer if they say it as yes (e.g. так так так) Of course many Ukrainians including famously Zelensky himself speak Russian natively even if more and more change to Ukrainian. So a surer sign might be to say: "Slava Ukraini" and expect back "Heroim Slava" or something to that effect ;-)
- yetihehe 4y ago
tibbydudeza 4y ago
A very satisfied PyCharm user. Doing the right thing even if it meant losing very valued folks and associated costs.
ashwagary 4y ago
The employees that they parted ways with will probably build a less politically involved code editor. Good, more competition.
pepecoder 4y ago
How many of relocated workers are really against Putin and war on Ukraine? Jetbrains true hero who only save his assets before sanctions hit hard entire shitty Russian economy. Good job!
mempko 4y ago
JetBrains is amazing! As far as I'm aware, not a single prominent US tech company left the US because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. JetBrains, by any standard, is doing a great thing here.

98 points by belzebub 4y ago

If this is correct, and it looks like it is: Good! 2022 has been a bad year for first Russia, then Iran and China and I hope they'll come crashing down, mostly because of the courage of Ukrainians as well as Iranian and Chinese citizens, but also because of actions like this. Good work Jetbrains!

Ekaros 4y ago
Now if only people in USA had courage to stand up and start prosecuting those behind drone strikes and invasions of Iraq and Afganistan.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  Both were dictatorships and terrorist nations. Not even close to equivalent. Ukraine is a democracy of 45 million people that's never threatened another nation.
  - my_city 4y ago
    Lol. The USA is the premier terrorist nation in the world, they funded Al-Qaeda and countless anti-communist militias and right-wing terrorist cells across the world. So according to your definition, the USA deserves to be invaded, since they are "a terrorist nation". Also, Ukraine has not been a real democracy for a long time. The communist party is banned (https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/07/05/ukraine-banned-the-communist-party/ https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/07/05/ukraine-banned-the-commu...), Zelensky banned opposition parties (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine-suspend-11-pro-russia-parties https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine...) and opposing media (https://europeanjournalists.org/blog/2021/08/26/ukraine-president-bans-opposition-media-strana-ua-and-sanctions-editor-in-chief/ https://europeanjournalists.org/blog/2021/08/26/ukraine-pres...). Also, can you get more sadistic in your message? Afghanistan and Iraq also had million of people who suffered tremendously from the criminal, genocidical invasion of their homeland. Ukraine is a developed nation, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, all the countries that the American Empire invaded were poor, underdeveloped and were already suffering without a war. Is disgusting how little value the lives of "poor brown people" have in the eyes of "the West".
    - mtnGoat 4y ago
      Maybe we can talk about the millions of Uighur China has stashed away in concentration camps? The Chinese don’t exactly have clean hands either there bud. They have millions of their own citizens suffering, and dying, by their own governments hands. If I were you, I’d choose other talking points when attempting to attack the west.
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      Afghanistan has suffered greatly under the Taliban. Ask the women there how their lives are... As for Iraq, ask Iranians how they feel about Saddam? Or the Kuwaitis? Or the Kurds? Or the many dissidents that Saddam murdered... And Ukraine didn't ban opposition parties, it's obvious you know nothing about their politics. They literally only banned parties that were ACTIVELY helping the Russians kill their own people. All the non-treasonous parties are still there. Also, every western country has special wartime laws. And considering Ukraine has had 3 different parties in power from the last 3 elections, you could argue they're among the most democratic countries...
  - janef0421 4y ago
    I find the claim that Ukraine is a "democracy" questionable considering the handling of the conflict in Donbas. Rather than allowing devolution of powers to the region, so that the predominantly Russian-speaking people of those regions can make local laws that reflect their interests, they have pursued a devastating 8 year long war. During the cause of this war, they have repeatedly reneged on promises made in treaties and deployed large neo-nazi militias, who view their activity in Donbas as part of an anti-slav race war. I do not think such actions are compatible with democracy.
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      Straight up propaganda here. You omitted the fact that Russia invaded Donbas 8 years ago. Also it's funny that Russia's "liberation" looks like mass murder, rape, genocide, kidnapping children and bombing apartments and hospitals... > part of an anti-slav race war. This is straight up hilarious since Ukrainian language is far closer to other Slavic languages than to Russian. Also Russia's been selling this war to Muslim minorities as a chance to "kill Slavs".
  - graymatters 4y ago
    As an independent nation Ukraine committed actual genocide against other ethnic religious population within its borders at least 3 times. 2 of them during the 20th century. Ukraine never acknowledged those, neither took responsibility, nor expressed any form of regret. If you think Ukraine is morally any better than Russia than you know no history. While very much against the invasion of Russia into Ukraine, Ukrainians should not be helped until they express genuine repentance for their historic crimes.
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      Even worse, many locals still celebrate the thought leaders behind some of the genocidal activities in Ukraine.
    - reitanqild 4y ago
      For some reason it seems Russia and Ukraine diverge sharply after 1991, and for some reason, Ukrainian authorities today enjoy strong support from all ethnic religious minorities and majorities, including amazingly both Atheists, Christians from various groups, Jews and Muslims. That is pretty impressive. Notable exception: the FSB "branch of the Orthodox Church" that is under direct leadership of "Patriarch" Kiril, a former(???) FSB personality who still need to edit away luxury watches from his photos...
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      Can't even give an example? Because every non-Russian historian would say otherwise... Exhibit A: Holodomor.
  - random314 4y ago
    > Both were dictatorships and terrorist nations. Not even close to equivalent. The invasion of Iraq was launched through Saudi Arabia. Another great democracy!
- reitanqild 4y ago
  One thing can be right without the other being wrong. I personally welcome criticism against USA as long as it isn't based on hate of USA but on general ideas. Very simplified: one should be ready to be proportionally critical to everyone else. For a practical example: I do not find it useful to listen to people who criticize USA (43000 dead civilians in Afghanistan in 20 years) while being utterly silent on Soviet Russia (somewhere between 500 000 and 2 500 000 dead in 10 years, sometimes in ways that make drone strikes look very civil). Or, if you say Soviet Russia is long ago (it isn't, many of us grew up in its shadows), it seems Russia has already killed more civilians in Ukraine in 10 months than US killed civilians in Afghanistan in 20 years. This of course comes on top of what they did and still do in Syria etc. Edit: I personally very much hope both: - that the parts of US that haven't realized how much crazy some Americans have done abroad. I understand it will be very very hard to bring to justice those who are responsible, but at least find a way to make sure no nore weddings are bombed with precision guided weapons. - that others who hate everything US is and stand for will at some point take a step back and realize how many people can thank American action for their lives.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mempko 4y ago
    Ok, but A million dead Iraqis. Afghanistan was childs play for the US. In fact, US sanctions against Iraq starved 500,000 children. Both governments, Russia and US, are war machines. As far as I'm aware, not a single large US software company left the US because of those wars. JetBrains is amazing by any standard.
my_city 4y ago
- bennysonething 4y ago
  What is imperialist about that particular opinion?
  - my_city 4y ago
    - mint2 4y ago
      Keep in mind that By posting such hyperbolic and unsupported statements, the other comments posted are viewed with the same level of credibility.
      - bilbyx 4y ago
        Brian Berletic from The New Atlas had already supported the claim that the US administration wanting to destablise and destroy China using official US government documents as evidence many times over. The truth is out in the open for all to find. The question is, do you want to know the truth.
        mint2 4y ago
        Yes and according to Russian investigative reporters, Ukraine has been proven to be run by nazis. The truth is out there open for all to find! The question is do you want to know the truth. Are readers supposed to take name dropping of a random fringe guy from a fringe source to mean anything other than the original point should be taken even more skeptically.
    - Larrikin 4y ago
      You keep equating Chinese people, Chinese government, and Chinese history. Those three are not exactly the same thing, no matter how much Xi and the Communists try to push that ideology on the world.

Proven 4y ago

cutler 4y ago

dagmx 4y ago

I really appreciate that they both have a strong moral stance on this and put their money and efforts behind it. No doubt that sanctions play into it to some degree but sanctions also don’t require such strong words and actions, which I think really show how they really stand behind what they say.

mechanical_bear 4y ago

Слава Україні! Excellent follow through on Jetbrains part!

tailspin2019 4y ago

As a JetBrains customer, I’m really pleased to read this. Sounds like this has been a significant undertaking.

yashg 4y ago

Good to see a company genuinely caring for its employees. We idolise psychopaths who treat people working for them like slaves and lesser humans. Such companies and founders need to be appreciated and applauded. These are the kind of folks I’d like to do business with.

my_city 4y ago

Hope you move out of USA the next time that country starts a war of agression under the pretext of "fighting terrorism" or whatever excuse they come up with.

bilbyx 4y ago
It's disappointing that JetBrains did not move out of Ukraine when the country started a war of aggression against the Russian people in the eastern breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, where thousands of Russians were killed since 2014. Why the double standard?
- nora-puchreiner 4y ago
  If we set aside moralizing, and take only the facts, then: 1. the company moved to countries with higher multipliers (i.e. with the same profit, the Dutch or German company is worth several times more than the Russian one). The current outbreak of Russophobia and panic associated with sanctions has given a unique chance to do such a relocation. They write that 800 employees agreed to move in 2022. How many would have agreed in 2021 or 2014? 2. in Russia, quite a few of the employees are local citizens. Some of them had their own homes. By getting a better offer, they could change jobs in 2 weeks. In Holland (Cyprus, Germany, ...), they need a residence permit for 1 year, tied to a specific employer. If they decide to change jobs, the new employer has to go through a months-long bureaucratic process, comparable to the process of initial migration from Russia - and this process does not guarantee a successful conclusion. And all these months they will have to pay for rented housing. And the previous (1 year, remember?) permit can expire during this process, which threatens deportation. That is, the employees have become much more dependent on the company, they will not scatter in the event of a major reorganization, cost-cutting (for the sake of morality and democracy, of course), etc. This all looks like preparation for the sale of JetBrains. I would bet that this will happen in the coming months. The difference between 2014 and 2022 is somewhere in here, not in who attacked whom and when. (the above is a subjective perception of their text and pure speculations, based on personal experience in a similar relocation of an IT company from Russia to EU short before 2014)

bennysonething 4y ago

I've read various reports of Russians getting a hard time in Europe (woman slapped in face on the street while speaking russian on her phone). Reminded me that Russians escaping Russia are refugees too.

Mikeb85 4y ago
> Reminded me that Russians escaping Russia are refugees too. They're dissidents, not refugees. Their country isn't being attacked nor under invasion.
The_Colonel 4y ago
This probably happens on a miniscule scale, given the big Russian diaspora in Europe. There are also practical "problems" - a westerner (even western Slavic speaker) has no chance to distinguish Ukrainian language from Russian (or even Russian speaking Ukrainian).
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  Also… speaking Russian in public shouldn’t sentence a person to be hated, much less slapped across the face. Oh you were born into a family that speaks the evil tongue? Off with your head, unless there’s some confusion it’s Ukrainian, in which case you’re safe.
- reitanqild 4y ago
  Practical tip: If person says да (da) for "yes" I think they speak Russian. I think Ukrainians use так for "yes". (Someone please confirm or correct me, but I am 90 something percent sure.) (Edit: looked it up and yes, I think I am right: https://www.ukrainianlessons.com/meanings-of-tak/ https://www.ukrainianlessons.com/meanings-of-tak/. That said, Russian also have the word так, so try to infer if they say it as yes (e.g. так так так) Of course many Ukrainians including famously Zelensky himself speak Russian natively even if more and more change to Ukrainian. So a surer sign might be to say: "Slava Ukraini" and expect back "Heroim Slava" or something to that effect ;-)
yetihehe 4y ago

tibbydudeza 4y ago

A very satisfied PyCharm user. Doing the right thing even if it meant losing very valued folks and associated costs.

ashwagary 4y ago

The employees that they parted ways with will probably build a less politically involved code editor. Good, more competition.

pepecoder 4y ago

How many of relocated workers are really against Putin and war on Ukraine? Jetbrains true hero who only save his assets before sanctions hit hard entire shitty Russian economy. Good job!

mempko 4y ago

JetBrains is amazing! As far as I'm aware, not a single prominent US tech company left the US because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. JetBrains, by any standard, is doing a great thing here.