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A word of advice to anyone on the fence about having kids: There’s nothing wrong with choosing not to have kids, but do yourself and consult with actual parents

A word of advice to anyone on the fence about having kids: There’s nothing wrong with choosing not to have kids, but do yourself and consult with actual parents for what it’s really like to have kids. Articles like this one, which are written by someone who apparently has chosen not to have children, are almost universally terrible at representing the true experience of being a parent. Yes, being a parent involves a period of reduced sleep (as this author points out). No, it does not mean your world ends and you’re never sleeping again. The low-sleep phase is temporary. It’s such a short duration relative to the rest of your life as a parent that it really doesn’t matter much in the long run. Same goes for changing diapers and dealing with baby vomit. If you’re focused on these experiences as the defining characteristics of being a parent, you’ll completely miss the big picture. This article also has a big strawman at the center: > I don't see how babies could possibly come back as the preferred lifestyle choice for couples in their 20s Most of the parents I know in my area had kids in their 30s. And it’s fine! Obviously you don’t want to be too old, but having kids in your 30s is basically the norm among working professionals. The fact that this author is focused on having kids in your 20s makes me wonder if they’re living in a childfree peer bubble or if they’re simply too young to see their friends and peers grow up, have children, and enjoy it.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
Having a kid is the most fun I’ve ever had. Used to go to raves, done bunch of crazy sexual stuff, as well as most drugs under the sun. There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour.
- bnert 4y ago
  > There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour. amen
  - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
    Chasing twin toddlers in a circle for an hour!
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Which raises question, who's chasing whom?
      - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
        It's a Mexican standoff. Then the older ones get envious and hop in. It is an entire football team chasing each other.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Is this satire? I have a child and the monotonous boredom of dealing with a toddler forces me to suppress the distant memories of freedom to go to raves, fight in foreign militia, get lost in stormy mountains, hitchhike across the plains...
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Chasing your toddler for an hour is fun. Chasing your toddler day after day, hour after hour because you have no one else to help you might not be so fun. There is distinct difference in the fun of raising children in a village where there are tons of other kids with low risk of cars so they can play outside freely, and raising children 24/7 because they cannot be left without supervision and there are few other kids on the street and the adults do not trust each other enough. Just having functional grandparents or aunts/uncles to take them off your hands once in a while would probably make a big difference.
    - overthemoon 4y ago
      The bit of advice I got from another parent before I had kids was golden: parents need time off the clock. Sometimes you need to hear your kid screeching about something and know it's someone else's problem. We don't have family around, so we give each other breaks on the weekend, usually one day where my spouse and I give each other half-day breaks. Idk what it's going to be like when he's older, but for now it works.
      - leesalminen 4y ago
        Same here. My wife likes to sleep in, I like to wake up early. Our typical Saturday involves me and my son spending 7A-nap time together outside the house while my wife sleeps in, lounges around and does her hobbies. When we get home, she’s totally refreshed. Another thing we do sometimes is drop him at daycare and we take an afternoon off to do something together. Works great for us. We don’t have any family within 3000 miles of us, so solutions were needed.
    - rglullis 4y ago
- ekabod 4y ago
  > There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour. I hope this is your toddler.
  - miroljub 4y ago
    >> There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour. > I hope this is your toddler. I hope it's your toddler who wrote this comment.
- fnbr 4y ago
  This is so true. I can’t believe how much I love having a kid. And mine’s only 6 months old. I’m beyond excited to actually do things with him, like run around with him, or go skiing/ride bikes.
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- jackmott42 4y ago
  Complete disagreement. Toddlers were completely uninteresting to me, nothing but hassle and pain and sorrow. Around 6 years old they get much more interesting and less awful to deal with. My wife feels the same way.
  - bityard 4y ago
    Sorry you guys had a bad experience. I'm just the opposite: the toddler stage is far and away my favorite stage of my kids' development. They are old enough to communicate with, but young enough that they discover something new and amazing in the world every single day. Getting to see the world through the eyes of a toddler really clarifies your world view.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      How old are your kids now?
  - enigma20 4y ago
    Same here. On Friday afternoon I'm already looking forward to Monday. I'm ok to play with a toddler for couple o hours, but entertaining a small but very active child for two days is really exhausting. I wish day care was opened on the weekends too, at least for few hours.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  I love wrastling toddlers, too. I wanted to say—these two lifestyles you describe (raves and toddlers) are not incompatible. I’ve had to get better at scheduling and communication, that’s all. For me, it was really helpful to develop concrete agreements with my partner. (E.g., I get to travel 8 weeks a year, I have to schedule 1 month in advance, and it can be for any reason). I don’t like the view that having kids means giving up on what you love to do in life. 4th kid is on the way. Seems nutso to me, but because my wife really wanted another. And if that is her dream, I am not going to stand in her way.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > I don’t like the view that having kids means giving up on what you love to do in life. Is there anyone other than you and your spouse helping raise the children? Does your spouse work? Lots of people do not have support from friends or family. Being able to take off while spouse is pregnant and taking care of 3 other kids is surely an abnormal situation.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      A parent being able to travel for a few days while one parent manages the kids is not abnormal. She took a weekend recently and left me with the 3 kids. It was fun and honestly more relaxed than most weekends. Maybe importantly is our spacing — 13, 10 and 3. Not saying 3 toddlers.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Oh, the ages change everything, since the 13 and 10 year old are basically capable of handling themselves and helping.
- mikewarot 4y ago
  I have a video recording of one irrationally happy time, I recorded it because I had a nifty new camera that could do it... the subject... me and my daughter in her car seat, waiting for my Wife to do some shopping. It's simply half an hour of "Where's Daddy?... oh oh... There's Daddy... " peek-a-bo with laughter all around. That was an insanely happy time. There's been lots of other fun, but that was peak pure bliss.
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jcpst 4y ago
> If you’re focused on these experiences as the defining characteristics of being a parent, you’ll completely miss the big picture. Right. Because that’s the easy part, when they’re babies. At first I didn’t believe my friend’s dad when he told me it actually gets more difficult when they get older.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  It really does get harder. Babies are not really that hard. They're a lot of work, but each individual thing you have to do is easy. Annoying or gross, sure, sometimes. But changing a diaper takes about a minute. Night time can be tough at first but if you do a good job with sleep training it gets better pretty quickly. My wife breastfed, so most mid-sleep wakeups just become "go grab the baby and hook him onto Mom, make sure everyone has what they need, and go lay back down." My sons are 8 and 6 now and that's much more difficult on some ways. They're 'people' enough that you can reason with them sometimes, but also sometimes they get trapped in completely ridiculous loops of illogic and emotion and you just have to ride it out while trying to remain calm. There's all kinds of dramas, illnesses, places to go, one thing after another. Mostly though, being a dad is great, and I recommend it. I meet lots of folks my age who seem kinda directionless, like they can't figure out what's missing, and I think for many of them, family is that missing piece. I've also met many DINKs who seem like they're having the time of their lives, so YMMV. I don't want to tell anyone how to live their life. But there does seem to me to be a cultural knee-jerk ruling out of family among my generation that puzzles and saddens me. Everyone seems to think there are a million qualifications they have to meet before becoming a parent. "We need to have a house, and 100k in savings, etc etc etc." And yes, it's good to be prepared. But also, as long as you're a semi functional human, you'll make it work. If you think you want to have children, you should!
  - jcpst 4y ago
    > Everyone seems to think there are a million qualifications they have to meet before becoming a parent. "We need to have a house, and 100k in savings, etc etc etc." And yes, it's good to be prepared. But also, as long as you're a semi functional human, you'll make it work. Very true. I didn’t have my own place to live or any money when the first one was on the way. In fact, my kids are the reason I started a new career, worked my way up, bought a house. It doesn’t all have to happen in a specific order. Like the parent post says, you make it work.
ehutch79 4y ago
Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. The childless among us hear every complaint and lament about how terrible it is. Why would we do that to ourselves?
- vincnetas 4y ago
  Did you hear from marathon runners how difficult it was? Same here, it's difficult but it brings experiences you could not have otherwise, and on pragmatic side passes on your genes ;)
  - sambapa 4y ago
    The amount of one's genes after several generations is homeopathic, so it doesn't matter in the long run.
    - D13Fd 4y ago
      Yeah that whole evolution thing is clearly bunk. . . .
  - tokai 4y ago
    Why yes marathon runners love to tell you how hard it was.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  I have 2 kids, I don’t recommend it. Quality of life decline is steep unless you’re wealthy and can hire robust childcare support, and it causes a significant decline in relationship satisfaction with your partner. Maybe you end up happy in the end, maybe you don’t, it’s Russian Roulette in a different form. People who tell you to go for it aren’t going to make you whole if it doesn’t work out or be your village when you need help. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00574.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/
Nursie 4y ago
I have friends who haven’t had a good night’s sleep in years because of one of their kids being unable to settle into normal patterns. I’m sure they’d still say it was worth it. Mind you they are getting divorced now so who knows. I think it’s fair to say YMMV on the sleep front.
- pooper 4y ago
  I see it the same way as people who have iPhones or luxury German cars. People who have iPhones or luxury German cars are more likely than not to rate themselves as satisfied with their purchase. It is as simple as wanting to feel good and usually it feels good to believe I am correct. Therefore, I suspect this is correct for both breeders and the child free that we will try to justify our own decisions, not for anyone else but to satisfy ourselves. We probably get simply defensive when questioned. It may not have anything to do with the greater fool theory as we aren't constantly buying or selling children or doing child swaps like banks do with money but it is worth bringing up as we are humans in both places and I suspect the underlying human psychology is the same. > In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through the purchase of overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price. > In this context, one "fool" might pay for an overpriced asset, hoping that he can sell it to an even "greater fool" and make a profit. This only works as long as there are enough new "greater fools" willing to pay higher and higher prices for the asset. Eventually, investors can no longer deny that the price is out of touch with reality, at which point a sell-off can cause the price to drop significantly until it is closer to its fair value, which in some cases could be zero.[1][2][3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory tl;Dr NEVER EVER trust a parent to tell you the truth about the "wonders" of being a parent, not because they are malicious but because they are likely incapable of being objective. edit: disclaimer, if it wasn't obvious, i made this all up. i don't have any children
  - bena 4y ago
    Having children is one of the big things that we cannot reasonably speculate our reaction to. Life is so fundamentally different before and after you have children you must care for. There is no amount of theorizing or philosophizing that will prepare you for the reality of the thing. You absolutely cannot trust the opinion of anyone who does not have children. They simply do not have the necessary experience. People with children however, have had life without children and life with children. So at least they have a basis of comparison. However, every experience is different. Being a single teen mom is a different situation than even being a teen mom with a supportive family. And different again than a "typical" mid-20s couple having a child. And everyone reacts differently. I can only say how experiences affected me. Bob can only say how experiences affected him. So you really can't base your decision on other people's experiences either. Not because of "greater fools" but because of self-selection bias. Most people who you will talk to about being parents enjoy parenthood and love their children. So while you don't know whether or not you'd be a good parent or if you'd like your children until you actually have children, it's still a decent reason to avoid having them. Not wanting to confront the question is a valid reason to avoid the question.
RHSeeger 4y ago
I like to say that, in being a parent, I'm less happy on an "instantaneous" basis, but more happy overall; more fulfilled. I expect, to some extent, it has something in common with volunteering at a charity. It's not the actual act of doing the work that makes you happy, it's the fact that you're doing the work for a reason. Would I love to sit around and play video games in the large amounts of free time I would have if I didn't have a family? Sure. But that instantaneous gratification does not compare to the more "overall" happiness of having a family. For me. Clearly, it's different for everyone.
jasonlotito 4y ago
This is like one of those “things parents think about having children that are wrong” articles. It makes a lot of assumptions about all parents having the same experience. It’s not. A lot of this assumes kids without any health issues. “The low-sleep phase is temporary.” Nope. “Same goes for changing diapers” Nope. There are lots of good things when it comes to children, and I love mine, but if you aren’t mentally prepared for the possibility that your entire life will have to change, you might want to think harder. It might not happen to you, but it could also happen. Do not let someone pretend that it’s all temporary. No. It’s literally for the rest of your life.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  > “The low-sleep phase is temporary.” Nope. “Same goes for changing diapers” Nope. Huh? Does your child have an issue where they never grow out of diapers? For the vast majority of people, the diaper phase is temporary.
  - dagw 4y ago
    For the vast majority of people, the diaper phase is temporary. Sure, but it is far from a guarantee. And you should at least be aware of that.
    - D13Fd 4y ago
      I guess. What is the percentage of people who have to wear diapers their whole life? I don't know but it has to be a small fraction of a percent.
      - jasonlotito 4y ago
        > I guess. You guess what? That potential parents should be prepared to take care of their children for their entire life? I think that's reasonable. Things happen all the time, too, where tragedies happen and people suffer medical issues that require lifetime care. Being a parent is committing to that. And if your thought is "I'm going to gamble that it doesn't happen to me" is really telling. Regardless, being informed is important. Maybe you got lucky in your ignorance, but not everyone will be so lucky.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
As I am getting older, I see young couples told to wait till they are settled and are in a better situation to have their token child. If you want children, do not wait. It will never be 'better situation'. There will be always some reason, mostly financial not to have them.
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- dham 4y ago
  A guy I worked with told me this advice and I wish I listened. We still had a kid early relatively to my other friends, I was 29 and wife was 27. It's better to be chasing around young kids when your 24 vs 34 I'll tell you that. But of course you're only as old as you feel.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I had my first at 32, and that was earlier than my friends. And when I pick mine up at daycare, I feel like I am the youngest. But I also do not feel noticeably worse off physically in mid 30s compared to mid 20s. I disagree that there will never be a better situation. A couple with secure cash flows and in demand talents can optimize when they have kids to accommodate goals (for example, their preferred living situation, career goals, etc). Things like moving, and working strenuous roles while having kids seems less than ideal. Of course, if you want 5 kids then waiting is not an option, but if you want 2, then there is some room for maneuvering.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Pretty consistently research has found waiting until at least roughly 30 or so leads to greater average life satisfaction for parents. I'm not going to provide a rigorous or even cited defense here but I spent several days sifting through the studies before coming to this conclusion. I encourage the reader to also study the journals before coming to their own conclusion.
- naasking 4y ago
  Of course there are better situations, there's just no perfect situation. Your advice entails people should have kids in high school with their sweetheart if they want to. That's obviously wrong.
unsupp0rted 4y ago
If someone could guarantee that I'll have healthy children, physically, mentally and emotionally, then sure I'll put up with reduced sleep and baby vomit. Oh and that I'll have a partner who will stay healthy (and loyal) for the 15 ~ 25 years it takes to turn a child into a self-sustaining responsible adult. But as it stands that's a game of Russian Roulette that I'm not willing to play.
- rendall 4y ago
  > Oh and that I'll have a partner who will stay healthy (and loyal)... The LVB (lowest viable bar) is "will I be able to have a civil conversation with this person about our child whenever needed, for at least 20 years?" People get so bitterly disappointed when "unconditional love" doesn't happen, they can't even meet the LVB. Keep LVB front and center when evaluating a potential mate. If the answer is "yes, no matter what happens, we can always be civil about the children", then no matter what, it should be okay.
  - unsupp0rted 4y ago
    > If the answer is "yes, no matter what happens, we can always be civil about the children I agree with you, although that's necessary but not sufficient. Having children isn't so wonderful that I'd put up for decades with a miserable relationship with my partner in the endeavor. With children in the mix, especially unhealthy children who require special support, you can't just say "looks like we've grown apart and can't communicate well anymore about even the basics, so cya". It's a lifelong commitment to a cofounder, no matter what.
    - rendall 4y ago
      > Having children isn't so wonderful that I'd put up for decades with a miserable relationship with my partner in the endeavor. Agreed, but that's not what I said nor even implied. If you're insisting on staying together for decades, and happily so to boot, that is a very high bar indeed. Such a high bar that only very few couples manage it. Few couples even manage the LVB. No. If you want to have kids, you have to know that even if you divorce, even horribly, even catastrophically, that you can have a civil conversation as needed about the child for at least 20 years. If you're not sure, don't do it. Do not have a child. Spare the children and the world your children.
cykros 4y ago
Probably also worth consulting with someone in their 50s that hasn't had kids. Having kids when you have an active social life seems like everything grinds to a half. NOT having kids when everyone you used to hang out with does is suddenly busy, on the other hand, is its own can of worms. At different age brackets, "normal social life" tends to look different -- and it varies by class and geography as well.
dustedcodes 4y ago
> The low-sleep phase is temporary. It’s such a short duration relative to the rest of your life as a parent that it really doesn’t matter much in the long run. Yeah.. I am a new dad to a 21 week old baby girl (our first) and I would say that the sleep deprivation stopped after about 8 weeks. The last few weeks have been absolutely amazing. I play with my daughter every day, I cuddle her, her giggles warm my heart and make me dream and get excited about the future. So many amazing things to look forward to. I can't wait to build a snowman with her. I can't wait to go snorkelling, skiing, ice skating, surfing, etc. with her. I can't wait to take her to places and answer all her questions and tell her stories and spend time together. Until now my best friend was my wife, but now we have an additional best friend in our life. It's someone to play a board game with in the evening when all our other friends are too busy watching Netflix. It's an extra person to have dinner with and have interesting conversations with. An extra person who will challenge me in my thinking, will educate me on issues I would be unaware of as an older person now. An extra person to argue with, love, hug, miss and root for in her own accomplishments. Who doesn't want an additional best friend in their life? Someone who you love so much that you know everything that you accumulate in your life you can happily pass down to? What I find interesting is that the same people who argue that having children is such a churn and piece of work because of the nappy changes, short lived lack of sleep, etc. are the same people who end up having 2 cats and a dog. That doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like to change nappies for a few months then why did you pick a pet which you'll have to walk to the park at 5am in the morning for many years to come just so it can have a piss and shit every morning. My friends with pets are much more limited in visiting restaurants or going on holiday than my friends with kids. Kids go everywhere, pets don't.
- coffeebeqn 4y ago
  Sorry to say but 8 weeks is way too early to celebrate. They tend to reset their sleep as they gain major milestones and sometimes can completely flip their sleeping habits once they have one of their huge eureka moments about the world.. or just start teething
  - dagw 4y ago
    My daughter slept fine for like 5 years straight, and then started waking up around 2-3 am almost every single night for the next 18 month. That was fun.
jackmott42 4y ago
In my experience real parents all lie about what having kids is like. You can see they are clearly worn out and depressed and in a fog but if you ask "OH KIDS ARE GREAT! REGRET NOTHING!" Later I had kids and that did not change my opinion!
- badwolf 4y ago
  It often sounds kind of stockholm syndrom-ey
sorum 4y ago
> The low-sleep phase is temporary. It’s such a short duration relative to the rest of your life as a parent that it really doesn’t matter much in the long run. Same goes for changing diapers and dealing with baby vomit. The weird thing is that I miss this phase. They're little for such a short amount of time and there's just nothing else like this pre-toddler phase. Maybe it's the oxytocin that just wipes your memory clean of all the fatigue and sleep deprivation.
yucky 4y ago
> Articles like this one, which are written by someone who apparently has chosen not to have children, are almost universally terrible at representing the true experience of being a parent. "Here's this thing I have no actual direct experience with, let me tell you all about it!"
bumby 4y ago
>consult with actual parents for what it’s really like to have kids. There's an interesting wrinkle into the answer you get, however. If you ask parents in one environment (say, at the workplace) about their thoughts on children they will often be different than asking about them in the act of raising those children. There is often an irreconcilable difference between our experience in the moment and how we later remember that experience. It's possible to be quite miserable raising children and still think back on it fondly. I'm not sure what that implies on the advice of consulting actual parents unless you know which you would prefer optimizing for.
drewzero1 4y ago
As a parent of a toddler, sleep and housework can still be challenging, but diapers barely even register any more. I hardly remember the sleepless month we had when my kid was about 3 months old. I still have friends and hobbies and an identity outside of being a parent. Honestly the biggest impact on my life so far is having to keep in mind that there is a developing person following me (both literally and figuratively) and copying exactly what I do and say.
thefz 4y ago
I'll never understand why the immediate response of some people is trying to coax others into having kids. It's not so bad blabla. Imagine someone doing the opposite to those who want them. Some men and women just aren't interested.

throwayyy479087 4y ago

Having a kid is the most fun I’ve ever had. Used to go to raves, done bunch of crazy sexual stuff, as well as most drugs under the sun. There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour.

bnert 4y ago
> There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour. amen
- WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  Chasing twin toddlers in a circle for an hour!
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Which raises question, who's chasing whom?
    - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
      It's a Mexican standoff. Then the older ones get envious and hop in. It is an entire football team chasing each other.
notch656a 4y ago
Is this satire? I have a child and the monotonous boredom of dealing with a toddler forces me to suppress the distant memories of freedom to go to raves, fight in foreign militia, get lost in stormy mountains, hitchhike across the plains...
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Chasing your toddler for an hour is fun. Chasing your toddler day after day, hour after hour because you have no one else to help you might not be so fun. There is distinct difference in the fun of raising children in a village where there are tons of other kids with low risk of cars so they can play outside freely, and raising children 24/7 because they cannot be left without supervision and there are few other kids on the street and the adults do not trust each other enough. Just having functional grandparents or aunts/uncles to take them off your hands once in a while would probably make a big difference.
  - overthemoon 4y ago
    The bit of advice I got from another parent before I had kids was golden: parents need time off the clock. Sometimes you need to hear your kid screeching about something and know it's someone else's problem. We don't have family around, so we give each other breaks on the weekend, usually one day where my spouse and I give each other half-day breaks. Idk what it's going to be like when he's older, but for now it works.
    - leesalminen 4y ago
      Same here. My wife likes to sleep in, I like to wake up early. Our typical Saturday involves me and my son spending 7A-nap time together outside the house while my wife sleeps in, lounges around and does her hobbies. When we get home, she’s totally refreshed. Another thing we do sometimes is drop him at daycare and we take an afternoon off to do something together. Works great for us. We don’t have any family within 3000 miles of us, so solutions were needed.
  - rglullis 4y ago
ekabod 4y ago
> There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour. I hope this is your toddler.
- miroljub 4y ago
  >> There’s nothing close to chasing a toddler in a circle for an hour. > I hope this is your toddler. I hope it's your toddler who wrote this comment.
fnbr 4y ago
This is so true. I can’t believe how much I love having a kid. And mine’s only 6 months old. I’m beyond excited to actually do things with him, like run around with him, or go skiing/ride bikes.
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jackmott42 4y ago
Complete disagreement. Toddlers were completely uninteresting to me, nothing but hassle and pain and sorrow. Around 6 years old they get much more interesting and less awful to deal with. My wife feels the same way.
- bityard 4y ago
  Sorry you guys had a bad experience. I'm just the opposite: the toddler stage is far and away my favorite stage of my kids' development. They are old enough to communicate with, but young enough that they discover something new and amazing in the world every single day. Getting to see the world through the eyes of a toddler really clarifies your world view.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    How old are your kids now?
- enigma20 4y ago
  Same here. On Friday afternoon I'm already looking forward to Monday. I'm ok to play with a toddler for couple o hours, but entertaining a small but very active child for two days is really exhausting. I wish day care was opened on the weekends too, at least for few hours.
dr_dshiv 4y ago
I love wrastling toddlers, too. I wanted to say—these two lifestyles you describe (raves and toddlers) are not incompatible. I’ve had to get better at scheduling and communication, that’s all. For me, it was really helpful to develop concrete agreements with my partner. (E.g., I get to travel 8 weeks a year, I have to schedule 1 month in advance, and it can be for any reason). I don’t like the view that having kids means giving up on what you love to do in life. 4th kid is on the way. Seems nutso to me, but because my wife really wanted another. And if that is her dream, I am not going to stand in her way.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > I don’t like the view that having kids means giving up on what you love to do in life. Is there anyone other than you and your spouse helping raise the children? Does your spouse work? Lots of people do not have support from friends or family. Being able to take off while spouse is pregnant and taking care of 3 other kids is surely an abnormal situation.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    A parent being able to travel for a few days while one parent manages the kids is not abnormal. She took a weekend recently and left me with the 3 kids. It was fun and honestly more relaxed than most weekends. Maybe importantly is our spacing — 13, 10 and 3. Not saying 3 toddlers.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Oh, the ages change everything, since the 13 and 10 year old are basically capable of handling themselves and helping.
mikewarot 4y ago
I have a video recording of one irrationally happy time, I recorded it because I had a nifty new camera that could do it... the subject... me and my daughter in her car seat, waiting for my Wife to do some shopping. It's simply half an hour of "Where's Daddy?... oh oh... There's Daddy... " peek-a-bo with laughter all around. That was an insanely happy time. There's been lots of other fun, but that was peak pure bliss.
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jcpst 4y ago

> If you’re focused on these experiences as the defining characteristics of being a parent, you’ll completely miss the big picture. Right. Because that’s the easy part, when they’re babies. At first I didn’t believe my friend’s dad when he told me it actually gets more difficult when they get older.

agentwiggles 4y ago
It really does get harder. Babies are not really that hard. They're a lot of work, but each individual thing you have to do is easy. Annoying or gross, sure, sometimes. But changing a diaper takes about a minute. Night time can be tough at first but if you do a good job with sleep training it gets better pretty quickly. My wife breastfed, so most mid-sleep wakeups just become "go grab the baby and hook him onto Mom, make sure everyone has what they need, and go lay back down." My sons are 8 and 6 now and that's much more difficult on some ways. They're 'people' enough that you can reason with them sometimes, but also sometimes they get trapped in completely ridiculous loops of illogic and emotion and you just have to ride it out while trying to remain calm. There's all kinds of dramas, illnesses, places to go, one thing after another. Mostly though, being a dad is great, and I recommend it. I meet lots of folks my age who seem kinda directionless, like they can't figure out what's missing, and I think for many of them, family is that missing piece. I've also met many DINKs who seem like they're having the time of their lives, so YMMV. I don't want to tell anyone how to live their life. But there does seem to me to be a cultural knee-jerk ruling out of family among my generation that puzzles and saddens me. Everyone seems to think there are a million qualifications they have to meet before becoming a parent. "We need to have a house, and 100k in savings, etc etc etc." And yes, it's good to be prepared. But also, as long as you're a semi functional human, you'll make it work. If you think you want to have children, you should!
- jcpst 4y ago
  > Everyone seems to think there are a million qualifications they have to meet before becoming a parent. "We need to have a house, and 100k in savings, etc etc etc." And yes, it's good to be prepared. But also, as long as you're a semi functional human, you'll make it work. Very true. I didn’t have my own place to live or any money when the first one was on the way. In fact, my kids are the reason I started a new career, worked my way up, bought a house. It doesn’t all have to happen in a specific order. Like the parent post says, you make it work.

ehutch79 4y ago

Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. The childless among us hear every complaint and lament about how terrible it is. Why would we do that to ourselves?

vincnetas 4y ago
Did you hear from marathon runners how difficult it was? Same here, it's difficult but it brings experiences you could not have otherwise, and on pragmatic side passes on your genes ;)
- sambapa 4y ago
  The amount of one's genes after several generations is homeopathic, so it doesn't matter in the long run.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    Yeah that whole evolution thing is clearly bunk. . . .
- tokai 4y ago
  Why yes marathon runners love to tell you how hard it was.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
I have 2 kids, I don’t recommend it. Quality of life decline is steep unless you’re wealthy and can hire robust childcare support, and it causes a significant decline in relationship satisfaction with your partner. Maybe you end up happy in the end, maybe you don’t, it’s Russian Roulette in a different form. People who tell you to go for it aren’t going to make you whole if it doesn’t work out or be your village when you need help. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2011-25189-001 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00574.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8062063/

Nursie 4y ago

I have friends who haven’t had a good night’s sleep in years because of one of their kids being unable to settle into normal patterns. I’m sure they’d still say it was worth it. Mind you they are getting divorced now so who knows. I think it’s fair to say YMMV on the sleep front.

pooper 4y ago
I see it the same way as people who have iPhones or luxury German cars. People who have iPhones or luxury German cars are more likely than not to rate themselves as satisfied with their purchase. It is as simple as wanting to feel good and usually it feels good to believe I am correct. Therefore, I suspect this is correct for both breeders and the child free that we will try to justify our own decisions, not for anyone else but to satisfy ourselves. We probably get simply defensive when questioned. It may not have anything to do with the greater fool theory as we aren't constantly buying or selling children or doing child swaps like banks do with money but it is worth bringing up as we are humans in both places and I suspect the underlying human psychology is the same. > In finance, the greater fool theory suggests that one can sometimes make money through the purchase of overvalued assets — items with a purchase price drastically exceeding the intrinsic value — if those assets can later be resold at an even higher price. > In this context, one "fool" might pay for an overpriced asset, hoping that he can sell it to an even "greater fool" and make a profit. This only works as long as there are enough new "greater fools" willing to pay higher and higher prices for the asset. Eventually, investors can no longer deny that the price is out of touch with reality, at which point a sell-off can cause the price to drop significantly until it is closer to its fair value, which in some cases could be zero.[1][2][3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory tl;Dr NEVER EVER trust a parent to tell you the truth about the "wonders" of being a parent, not because they are malicious but because they are likely incapable of being objective. edit: disclaimer, if it wasn't obvious, i made this all up. i don't have any children
- bena 4y ago
  Having children is one of the big things that we cannot reasonably speculate our reaction to. Life is so fundamentally different before and after you have children you must care for. There is no amount of theorizing or philosophizing that will prepare you for the reality of the thing. You absolutely cannot trust the opinion of anyone who does not have children. They simply do not have the necessary experience. People with children however, have had life without children and life with children. So at least they have a basis of comparison. However, every experience is different. Being a single teen mom is a different situation than even being a teen mom with a supportive family. And different again than a "typical" mid-20s couple having a child. And everyone reacts differently. I can only say how experiences affected me. Bob can only say how experiences affected him. So you really can't base your decision on other people's experiences either. Not because of "greater fools" but because of self-selection bias. Most people who you will talk to about being parents enjoy parenthood and love their children. So while you don't know whether or not you'd be a good parent or if you'd like your children until you actually have children, it's still a decent reason to avoid having them. Not wanting to confront the question is a valid reason to avoid the question.

RHSeeger 4y ago

I like to say that, in being a parent, I'm less happy on an "instantaneous" basis, but more happy overall; more fulfilled. I expect, to some extent, it has something in common with volunteering at a charity. It's not the actual act of doing the work that makes you happy, it's the fact that you're doing the work for a reason. Would I love to sit around and play video games in the large amounts of free time I would have if I didn't have a family? Sure. But that instantaneous gratification does not compare to the more "overall" happiness of having a family. For me. Clearly, it's different for everyone.

jasonlotito 4y ago

This is like one of those “things parents think about having children that are wrong” articles. It makes a lot of assumptions about all parents having the same experience. It’s not. A lot of this assumes kids without any health issues. “The low-sleep phase is temporary.” Nope. “Same goes for changing diapers” Nope. There are lots of good things when it comes to children, and I love mine, but if you aren’t mentally prepared for the possibility that your entire life will have to change, you might want to think harder. It might not happen to you, but it could also happen. Do not let someone pretend that it’s all temporary. No. It’s literally for the rest of your life.

D13Fd 4y ago
> “The low-sleep phase is temporary.” Nope. “Same goes for changing diapers” Nope. Huh? Does your child have an issue where they never grow out of diapers? For the vast majority of people, the diaper phase is temporary.
- dagw 4y ago
  For the vast majority of people, the diaper phase is temporary. Sure, but it is far from a guarantee. And you should at least be aware of that.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    I guess. What is the percentage of people who have to wear diapers their whole life? I don't know but it has to be a small fraction of a percent.
    - jasonlotito 4y ago
      > I guess. You guess what? That potential parents should be prepared to take care of their children for their entire life? I think that's reasonable. Things happen all the time, too, where tragedies happen and people suffer medical issues that require lifetime care. Being a parent is committing to that. And if your thought is "I'm going to gamble that it doesn't happen to me" is really telling. Regardless, being informed is important. Maybe you got lucky in your ignorance, but not everyone will be so lucky.

WaitWaitWha 4y ago

As I am getting older, I see young couples told to wait till they are settled and are in a better situation to have their token child. If you want children, do not wait. It will never be 'better situation'. There will be always some reason, mostly financial not to have them.

deleted 4y ago
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dham 4y ago
A guy I worked with told me this advice and I wish I listened. We still had a kid early relatively to my other friends, I was 29 and wife was 27. It's better to be chasing around young kids when your 24 vs 34 I'll tell you that. But of course you're only as old as you feel.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I had my first at 32, and that was earlier than my friends. And when I pick mine up at daycare, I feel like I am the youngest. But I also do not feel noticeably worse off physically in mid 30s compared to mid 20s. I disagree that there will never be a better situation. A couple with secure cash flows and in demand talents can optimize when they have kids to accommodate goals (for example, their preferred living situation, career goals, etc). Things like moving, and working strenuous roles while having kids seems less than ideal. Of course, if you want 5 kids then waiting is not an option, but if you want 2, then there is some room for maneuvering.
notch656a 4y ago
Pretty consistently research has found waiting until at least roughly 30 or so leads to greater average life satisfaction for parents. I'm not going to provide a rigorous or even cited defense here but I spent several days sifting through the studies before coming to this conclusion. I encourage the reader to also study the journals before coming to their own conclusion.
naasking 4y ago
Of course there are better situations, there's just no perfect situation. Your advice entails people should have kids in high school with their sweetheart if they want to. That's obviously wrong.

unsupp0rted 4y ago

If someone could guarantee that I'll have healthy children, physically, mentally and emotionally, then sure I'll put up with reduced sleep and baby vomit. Oh and that I'll have a partner who will stay healthy (and loyal) for the 15 ~ 25 years it takes to turn a child into a self-sustaining responsible adult. But as it stands that's a game of Russian Roulette that I'm not willing to play.

rendall 4y ago
> Oh and that I'll have a partner who will stay healthy (and loyal)... The LVB (lowest viable bar) is "will I be able to have a civil conversation with this person about our child whenever needed, for at least 20 years?" People get so bitterly disappointed when "unconditional love" doesn't happen, they can't even meet the LVB. Keep LVB front and center when evaluating a potential mate. If the answer is "yes, no matter what happens, we can always be civil about the children", then no matter what, it should be okay.
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  > If the answer is "yes, no matter what happens, we can always be civil about the children I agree with you, although that's necessary but not sufficient. Having children isn't so wonderful that I'd put up for decades with a miserable relationship with my partner in the endeavor. With children in the mix, especially unhealthy children who require special support, you can't just say "looks like we've grown apart and can't communicate well anymore about even the basics, so cya". It's a lifelong commitment to a cofounder, no matter what.
  - rendall 4y ago
    > Having children isn't so wonderful that I'd put up for decades with a miserable relationship with my partner in the endeavor. Agreed, but that's not what I said nor even implied. If you're insisting on staying together for decades, and happily so to boot, that is a very high bar indeed. Such a high bar that only very few couples manage it. Few couples even manage the LVB. No. If you want to have kids, you have to know that even if you divorce, even horribly, even catastrophically, that you can have a civil conversation as needed about the child for at least 20 years. If you're not sure, don't do it. Do not have a child. Spare the children and the world your children.

cykros 4y ago

Probably also worth consulting with someone in their 50s that hasn't had kids. Having kids when you have an active social life seems like everything grinds to a half. NOT having kids when everyone you used to hang out with does is suddenly busy, on the other hand, is its own can of worms. At different age brackets, "normal social life" tends to look different -- and it varies by class and geography as well.

dustedcodes 4y ago

> The low-sleep phase is temporary. It’s such a short duration relative to the rest of your life as a parent that it really doesn’t matter much in the long run. Yeah.. I am a new dad to a 21 week old baby girl (our first) and I would say that the sleep deprivation stopped after about 8 weeks. The last few weeks have been absolutely amazing. I play with my daughter every day, I cuddle her, her giggles warm my heart and make me dream and get excited about the future. So many amazing things to look forward to. I can't wait to build a snowman with her. I can't wait to go snorkelling, skiing, ice skating, surfing, etc. with her. I can't wait to take her to places and answer all her questions and tell her stories and spend time together. Until now my best friend was my wife, but now we have an additional best friend in our life. It's someone to play a board game with in the evening when all our other friends are too busy watching Netflix. It's an extra person to have dinner with and have interesting conversations with. An extra person who will challenge me in my thinking, will educate me on issues I would be unaware of as an older person now. An extra person to argue with, love, hug, miss and root for in her own accomplishments. Who doesn't want an additional best friend in their life? Someone who you love so much that you know everything that you accumulate in your life you can happily pass down to? What I find interesting is that the same people who argue that having children is such a churn and piece of work because of the nappy changes, short lived lack of sleep, etc. are the same people who end up having 2 cats and a dog. That doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like to change nappies for a few months then why did you pick a pet which you'll have to walk to the park at 5am in the morning for many years to come just so it can have a piss and shit every morning. My friends with pets are much more limited in visiting restaurants or going on holiday than my friends with kids. Kids go everywhere, pets don't.

coffeebeqn 4y ago
Sorry to say but 8 weeks is way too early to celebrate. They tend to reset their sleep as they gain major milestones and sometimes can completely flip their sleeping habits once they have one of their huge eureka moments about the world.. or just start teething
- dagw 4y ago
  My daughter slept fine for like 5 years straight, and then started waking up around 2-3 am almost every single night for the next 18 month. That was fun.

jackmott42 4y ago

In my experience real parents all lie about what having kids is like. You can see they are clearly worn out and depressed and in a fog but if you ask "OH KIDS ARE GREAT! REGRET NOTHING!" Later I had kids and that did not change my opinion!

badwolf 4y ago
It often sounds kind of stockholm syndrom-ey

sorum 4y ago

> The low-sleep phase is temporary. It’s such a short duration relative to the rest of your life as a parent that it really doesn’t matter much in the long run. Same goes for changing diapers and dealing with baby vomit. The weird thing is that I miss this phase. They're little for such a short amount of time and there's just nothing else like this pre-toddler phase. Maybe it's the oxytocin that just wipes your memory clean of all the fatigue and sleep deprivation.

yucky 4y ago

> Articles like this one, which are written by someone who apparently has chosen not to have children, are almost universally terrible at representing the true experience of being a parent. "Here's this thing I have no actual direct experience with, let me tell you all about it!"

bumby 4y ago

>consult with actual parents for what it’s really like to have kids. There's an interesting wrinkle into the answer you get, however. If you ask parents in one environment (say, at the workplace) about their thoughts on children they will often be different than asking about them in the act of raising those children. There is often an irreconcilable difference between our experience in the moment and how we later remember that experience. It's possible to be quite miserable raising children and still think back on it fondly. I'm not sure what that implies on the advice of consulting actual parents unless you know which you would prefer optimizing for.

drewzero1 4y ago

As a parent of a toddler, sleep and housework can still be challenging, but diapers barely even register any more. I hardly remember the sleepless month we had when my kid was about 3 months old. I still have friends and hobbies and an identity outside of being a parent. Honestly the biggest impact on my life so far is having to keep in mind that there is a developing person following me (both literally and figuratively) and copying exactly what I do and say.

thefz 4y ago

I'll never understand why the immediate response of some people is trying to coax others into having kids. It's not so bad blabla. Imagine someone doing the opposite to those who want them. Some men and women just aren't interested.