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While I of course condemn Russia invading, and support the US and NATO funding Ukraine's defense, a very cynical read of the situation would conclude exactly th
by joecot 4y ago
While I of course condemn Russia invading, and support the US and NATO funding Ukraine's defense, a very cynical read of the situation would conclude exactly this.
US and NATO diplomats were crystal clear that after the USSR's fall, the former Soviet states should not be invited into NATO. And later that they should not be invited into the EU. Even with USSR gone, they were in Russia's sphere of influence, and making those overtures would be provocative.
The US pushing for a military alliance with Ukraine is what initially set Putin on trying to take control of Ukraine. That is a mighty long border to share with a US ally. Everything went downhill from there.
So a very, very cynical read of this situation would be that the US and NATO goaded this war specifically so that Putin would play his hand, and the entire world would watch as Russia crumbled. That their entire military was a front for crumbling soviet era technology and resources. The problem with building a society where the powerful steal everything not nailed down is that they also do that to the military. US and NATO intelligence likely knew this.
And given how brazenly the US and NATO have supported Ukraine through this, I would also hazard a guess that they know that most if not all of Russia's nukes won't actually fly.
EDIT since multiple responses have asked about a source[1] on the nato comment:
> The present crisis has its roots in a long-brewing contest over Ukraine’s geopolitical alignment. After the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine became independent but for decades joined neither with Russia nor with the West. The United States, for its part, expanded its NATO alliance but initially sidestepped Ukraine. It recognized that Russia, sharing deep ties and a 1,426-mile land border with Ukraine, might oppose such a move by force. “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin),” William J. Burns, then U.S. ambassador to Russia and current CIA director, cabled from Moscow in 2008. “I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.”
> Later that year, however, President George W. Bush pressured NATO to pledge that Ukraine and Georgia “will become members of NATO.” Although momentum toward membership stalled for multiple reasons, Ukraine pursued an association agreement with the European Union that moved more quickly. When, in 2014, Ukraine’s Revolution of Dignity replaced a Russian-oriented government with a pro-Western one, Russia swiftly annexed Crimea, home to its Black Sea naval base, and backed separatists in eastern Ukraine.
1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/23/ukraine-taiwan-red-lines/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/23/ukraine-ta...
- avmich 4y ago> US and NATO diplomats were crystal clear that after the USSR's fall, the former Soviet states should not be invited into NATO. And later that they should not be invited into the EU. Can you provide the source for this, please? > The US pushing for a military alliance with Ukraine is what initially set Putin on trying to take control of Ukraine. Why do you think so? Can't there be another reason for invasion?
- joecot 4y ago> Can you provide the source for this, please? Sure[1]. If you google you will find the direct quote in this paragraph in many places. > The present crisis has its roots in a long-brewing contest over Ukraine’s geopolitical alignment. After the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine became independent but for decades joined neither with Russia nor with the West. The United States, for its part, expanded its NATO alliance but initially sidestepped Ukraine. It recognized that Russia, sharing deep ties and a 1,426-mile land border with Ukraine, might oppose such a move by force. “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin),” William J. Burns, then U.S. ambassador to Russia and current CIA director, cabled from Moscow in 2008. “I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.” 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/23/ukraine-taiwan-red-lines/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/23/ukraine-ta...
- avmich 4y agoWell, your quote doesn't support your statement, right? Baltic countries - former Soviet republics - aren't Ukraine, and they went to NATO - quite some years ago already. Meanwhile, Ukraine is not in NATO, doesn't even have guarantees it'll be there, even after this war (which I frankly consider stupid, given that NATO was created to deter the predecessor of Russia, and it's Ukraine which is actually doing that in the battlefield). And I'd take William J Burns words with some grain of salt. It's likely "anyone" who he had to find were from some selected circle of rather like-minded persons.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]