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It's gotten so much worse since Bruce Harrell has gotten into office. Wild to see the Seattle Chamber acting like he is making things better in Downtown when 2

It's gotten so much worse since Bruce Harrell has gotten into office. Wild to see the Seattle Chamber acting like he is making things better in Downtown when 2 blocks down the hill from City Hall 7-Eleven closed up shop due to all the tweakers. Go towards Pioneer Square and the London Plane Coffee Shop there is closing permanently this month, leaving that block of Occidental mostly devoid of foot traffic.

skorpeon87 4y ago
> Wild to see the Seattle Chamber acting like he is making things better in Downtown when 2 blocks down the hill from City Hall 7-Eleven closed up shop due to all the tweakers. This apparent contradiction is easy to explain. Forcing people into rehab is considered inhumane. Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. More tweakers out on the street is evidence that the tweakers feel tolerated, which must mean that it's working. This won't change until you vote out the local politicians who believe these premises: that forcing people into rehab is inhumane. That tweakers are victims of society's intolerance, and that tweakers wouldn't be a problem if we had more tolerance for them.
- simfree 4y ago
  You have me laughing my ass off right now. I know one person who is in involuntary detox currently (then onto court ordered rehab). The King County Municipal Court is dishing these out left and right, but that still doesn't prevent relapse 6 months after getting out of rehab. Then we get all the suburbs dumping their druggies in Pioneer Square and Chinatown. It's a neverending pipeline of addicts the Eastside and south end is dumping on us. We need to start tracking all non-city LEOs entering Seattle and turn them around if they are giving courtesy rides. Called 911 on one from Bothell yesterday and started filming the occupant and cop. They raced off right quick but I still filed a complaint with Bothell PD.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    > Then we get all the suburbs dumping their druggies in Pioneer Square and Chinatown. I How is that happening?
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Metro or Sound Transit mostly. The east side makes itself inhospitable to porch pirating and public drug use/selling, so the problems wind up in Seattle where the police do much less in those areas.
      - Akronymus 4y ago
        So, how is it easr sides fault? Because the comments seem to be implying it to be.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        I’m a fan of the way the east side does things, none of their voters will fault the police for being too strict on enforcement of quality of life issues. But Seattle voters are different, so this is what we get. It’s neither’s fault, people will just go where they can live life the easiest, do you blame them?
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    The east side simply enforces it laws. Ya, they don’t go anywhere in the King County Justice system, but the harassment of getting arrested in Bellevue for doing drugs in public is enough to push them into Seattle where that would simply never occur.
    - simfree 4y ago
      The Eastside dumps it's problems elsewhere, the current homeless situation and lack of facilities east of Seattle is but one example. Everett has made a huge effort with their rehabilitation and detox programs, but they have the same shitty situation of being the dumping ground for Snohomish County.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Yes, that famously effective policy of involuntary rehab. Rehab isn't magic - it requires you to really, really, really not want to use drugs anymore.
  - XorNot 4y ago
    Which it's worth noting also requires incentives in your life to actually improve it. Kicking someone out of rehab when they're cured with no job prospects, no support network and no home has rather predictable results.
    - Rimintil 4y ago
      Incentives aren’t effective. It requires a personal want to get off of drugs. But you’re right, these individuals certainly are getting disincentives.
      - tremon 4y ago
        I think the GP was saying that incentives are a prerequisite for that personal want, not that they're sufficient to prevent relapse.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > Forcing people into rehab is considered inhumane. How is it otherwise? Or do we just forget other people's freedom when they do things you don't like? > Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. More tweakers out on the street is evidence that the tweakers feel tolerated, which must mean that it's working. Instead of strawpeople and rants, how about trying to find solutions that help everyone?
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    You can’t help everyone and it’s unfair to expect those living normal lives to suffer because drug addicts exist.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      > You can’t help everyone So what? Do we do nothing at all in life, because it cannot be done perfectly? And I'm not sure you are correct; we probably could help at least the vast majority. Why aren't we? Why stand around debating it. Let's act! > it’s unfair to expect those living normal lives to suffer because drug addicts exist. It's life, it's the world you are born into - none other ever has existed. Let's raise ourselves up, and especially abandon the absurd trend - is there a more vicious and dangerous one? - of lacking empathy. I understand disruption; it's a tool; what are we trying to accomplish by eliminating empathy? You and I need empathy too; we give it, in great volume, and maybe in life we get a little back. We live in the real world, not on an island, and this is very much part of the world. We're expected to do these things - it's necessary, basic life and responsibility, along with being humane and responsible. You weren't born into a pain-free, suffering-free world. Civilization, society, your community runs on these efforts, whether you realize it or not - if not, you are sitting back while others do the hard work. And you cause your share too (including trying to take away others' freedom and dignity) and so do I. These are vulnerable people; they need help and support; they might not be nice, and God knows who is deserving. I'm not throwing any stones.
  - humanizersequel 4y ago
    >do we just forget other people's freedom when they do things you don't like Yes, we do this all the time.
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  > Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. You should strongly consider that these suppositions are fundamentally wrong. I suggest you read Sanfransicko, written by a longtime progressive democrat activist who had the vanishingly rare intellectual honesty to examine in hindsight the results of the drug and homeless policies he himself fought for. He found that they were disastrous!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - PathOfEclipse 4y ago
    I realize I was wrong in not reading parent's post all the way through but I can't delete my comment due to hacker News' draconian delete policy.
munificent 4y ago
It's been much better here in Ballard. I can actually use the bike lanes on 8th Ave. again.
- simfree 4y ago
  Hasn't the Ballard Alliance been employing ambassadors similar to the Downtown Ambassadors to defend the blocks (pick up trash, encourage homeless to not sleep on defended blocks, etc)? IIRC their grants and ability to tax local businesses came through under Jenny Durkan's reign, same for the Uptown Alliance covering Queen Anne and Belltown. Jenny Durkan's reign of rainbow colored tear gas was truly awful, but this (and further roads investments) were bright spots.
  - munificent 4y ago
    I don't know all of the details of what's cause and effect, unfortunately.
themitigating 4y ago
Edit: I made a major mistake in which city. Sorry. "It's gotten so much worse since Bruce Harrell has gotten into office." Bruce Harrell was sworn in at the start of 2022. Here's the crime statisitic from the SAPD Type,2022,2021, year over year change % Homicide 51,51 0.0% Rape 215,205 4.9% Robbery 2184,2053 6.4% Assault 2375,2185 8.7% Buglary 5292,6709 -21.1% MV Theft 5664,5446 4.0% Arson 273,308 -11.4% Larceny Theft 31814,28459 11.8% I see mixed results but more importantly for the specific type of crime that has gone up it's been mostly single digit year over year. https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
- 98codes 4y ago
  What does the mayor of Seattle have to do with crime in San Francisco?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The Seattle City Council looks to SF for inspiration :-/
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      There aren't any Starbucks in the TL.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Your link goes to San Francisco crime statistics... I thought this thread was talking about Seattle?
  - themitigating 4y ago
    I made a mistake when searching for the data. From Seattle Type, 2021, 2022 Homicide 42, 46 Rape 300,261 Robbery 1751,1534 Assault 3319,3015 Arson 227,167 Burglary 9821,7361 Larceny-theft 27161,24121 Motor Theft 5329,5591 All categories are down except for Motor Vehicle Theft which is up 5% and murder which was 42 people in 2021 and 46 in 2022. Source: https://www.seattle.gov/police/information-and-data/crime-dashboard https://www.seattle.gov/police/information-and-data/crime-da... [Note I switched positions for years]
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
I disagree. Things have gotten better under Harrell, we no longer have an encampment at the Ballard commons, but we are so far in the hole that we have a very long way to go. We also need changes at the county level.
- xracy 4y ago
  Where did the encampment move to? Cause you realize they don't just go away? They move? The only way to make them go away is to actually find a place for them to live that you're happy with...
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Oh even if they find places for them to live, the problem grows with every inbound greyhound. In fact, that’s what happened: they would offer everyone places in a motel or tiny houses, they would leave, more people would move in the next day to take up the free space. The more resources we throw at this problem, the worse it gets. Which makes sense actually, who wouldn’t come to Seattle for a free tiny house and free things at the store (since shoplifting isn’t prosecuted anymore)?
    - LastTrain 4y ago
      It isn’t your failing, it is everyone else’s. The housing first strategy only works of a critical mass of communities participate.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        > It isn’t your failing, it is everyone else’s. Yes, that's exactly what they say! "It's not my fault I'm addicted to fent, its your fault!" > The housing first strategy only works of a critical mass of communities participate. It works for people whose main problem is lack of housing. It doesn't work with people who have other serious problems, all that happens is the house gets burned out and has to be constantly refurbished (so costs are around $100k/year per hard case housed).

skorpeon87 4y ago

> Wild to see the Seattle Chamber acting like he is making things better in Downtown when 2 blocks down the hill from City Hall 7-Eleven closed up shop due to all the tweakers. This apparent contradiction is easy to explain. Forcing people into rehab is considered inhumane. Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. More tweakers out on the street is evidence that the tweakers feel tolerated, which must mean that it's working. This won't change until you vote out the local politicians who believe these premises: that forcing people into rehab is inhumane. That tweakers are victims of society's intolerance, and that tweakers wouldn't be a problem if we had more tolerance for them.

simfree 4y ago
You have me laughing my ass off right now. I know one person who is in involuntary detox currently (then onto court ordered rehab). The King County Municipal Court is dishing these out left and right, but that still doesn't prevent relapse 6 months after getting out of rehab. Then we get all the suburbs dumping their druggies in Pioneer Square and Chinatown. It's a neverending pipeline of addicts the Eastside and south end is dumping on us. We need to start tracking all non-city LEOs entering Seattle and turn them around if they are giving courtesy rides. Called 911 on one from Bothell yesterday and started filming the occupant and cop. They raced off right quick but I still filed a complaint with Bothell PD.
- tomcam 4y ago
  > Then we get all the suburbs dumping their druggies in Pioneer Square and Chinatown. I How is that happening?
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Metro or Sound Transit mostly. The east side makes itself inhospitable to porch pirating and public drug use/selling, so the problems wind up in Seattle where the police do much less in those areas.
    - Akronymus 4y ago
      So, how is it easr sides fault? Because the comments seem to be implying it to be.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        I’m a fan of the way the east side does things, none of their voters will fault the police for being too strict on enforcement of quality of life issues. But Seattle voters are different, so this is what we get. It’s neither’s fault, people will just go where they can live life the easiest, do you blame them?
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  The east side simply enforces it laws. Ya, they don’t go anywhere in the King County Justice system, but the harassment of getting arrested in Bellevue for doing drugs in public is enough to push them into Seattle where that would simply never occur.
  - simfree 4y ago
    The Eastside dumps it's problems elsewhere, the current homeless situation and lack of facilities east of Seattle is but one example. Everett has made a huge effort with their rehabilitation and detox programs, but they have the same shitty situation of being the dumping ground for Snohomish County.
idiotsecant 4y ago
Yes, that famously effective policy of involuntary rehab. Rehab isn't magic - it requires you to really, really, really not want to use drugs anymore.
- XorNot 4y ago
  Which it's worth noting also requires incentives in your life to actually improve it. Kicking someone out of rehab when they're cured with no job prospects, no support network and no home has rather predictable results.
  - Rimintil 4y ago
    Incentives aren’t effective. It requires a personal want to get off of drugs. But you’re right, these individuals certainly are getting disincentives.
    - tremon 4y ago
      I think the GP was saying that incentives are a prerequisite for that personal want, not that they're sufficient to prevent relapse.
wolverine876 4y ago
> Forcing people into rehab is considered inhumane. How is it otherwise? Or do we just forget other people's freedom when they do things you don't like? > Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. More tweakers out on the street is evidence that the tweakers feel tolerated, which must mean that it's working. Instead of strawpeople and rants, how about trying to find solutions that help everyone?
- edgyquant 4y ago
  You can’t help everyone and it’s unfair to expect those living normal lives to suffer because drug addicts exist.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > You can’t help everyone So what? Do we do nothing at all in life, because it cannot be done perfectly? And I'm not sure you are correct; we probably could help at least the vast majority. Why aren't we? Why stand around debating it. Let's act! > it’s unfair to expect those living normal lives to suffer because drug addicts exist. It's life, it's the world you are born into - none other ever has existed. Let's raise ourselves up, and especially abandon the absurd trend - is there a more vicious and dangerous one? - of lacking empathy. I understand disruption; it's a tool; what are we trying to accomplish by eliminating empathy? You and I need empathy too; we give it, in great volume, and maybe in life we get a little back. We live in the real world, not on an island, and this is very much part of the world. We're expected to do these things - it's necessary, basic life and responsibility, along with being humane and responsible. You weren't born into a pain-free, suffering-free world. Civilization, society, your community runs on these efforts, whether you realize it or not - if not, you are sitting back while others do the hard work. And you cause your share too (including trying to take away others' freedom and dignity) and so do I. These are vulnerable people; they need help and support; they might not be nice, and God knows who is deserving. I'm not throwing any stones.
- humanizersequel 4y ago
  >do we just forget other people's freedom when they do things you don't like Yes, we do this all the time.
PathOfEclipse 4y ago
> Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. You should strongly consider that these suppositions are fundamentally wrong. I suggest you read Sanfransicko, written by a longtime progressive democrat activist who had the vanishingly rare intellectual honesty to examine in hindsight the results of the drug and homeless policies he himself fought for. He found that they were disastrous!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  I realize I was wrong in not reading parent's post all the way through but I can't delete my comment due to hacker News' draconian delete policy.

munificent 4y ago

It's been much better here in Ballard. I can actually use the bike lanes on 8th Ave. again.

simfree 4y ago
Hasn't the Ballard Alliance been employing ambassadors similar to the Downtown Ambassadors to defend the blocks (pick up trash, encourage homeless to not sleep on defended blocks, etc)? IIRC their grants and ability to tax local businesses came through under Jenny Durkan's reign, same for the Uptown Alliance covering Queen Anne and Belltown. Jenny Durkan's reign of rainbow colored tear gas was truly awful, but this (and further roads investments) were bright spots.
- munificent 4y ago
  I don't know all of the details of what's cause and effect, unfortunately.

themitigating 4y ago

Edit: I made a major mistake in which city. Sorry. "It's gotten so much worse since Bruce Harrell has gotten into office." Bruce Harrell was sworn in at the start of 2022. Here's the crime statisitic from the SAPD Type,2022,2021, year over year change % Homicide 51,51 0.0% Rape 215,205 4.9% Robbery 2184,2053 6.4% Assault 2375,2185 8.7% Buglary 5292,6709 -21.1% MV Theft 5664,5446 4.0% Arson 273,308 -11.4% Larceny Theft 31814,28459 11.8% I see mixed results but more importantly for the specific type of crime that has gone up it's been mostly single digit year over year. https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crime-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...

98codes 4y ago
What does the mayor of Seattle have to do with crime in San Francisco?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The Seattle City Council looks to SF for inspiration :-/
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    There aren't any Starbucks in the TL.
kelnos 4y ago
Your link goes to San Francisco crime statistics... I thought this thread was talking about Seattle?
- themitigating 4y ago
  I made a mistake when searching for the data. From Seattle Type, 2021, 2022 Homicide 42, 46 Rape 300,261 Robbery 1751,1534 Assault 3319,3015 Arson 227,167 Burglary 9821,7361 Larceny-theft 27161,24121 Motor Theft 5329,5591 All categories are down except for Motor Vehicle Theft which is up 5% and murder which was 42 people in 2021 and 46 in 2022. Source: https://www.seattle.gov/police/information-and-data/crime-dashboard https://www.seattle.gov/police/information-and-data/crime-da... [Note I switched positions for years]

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

I disagree. Things have gotten better under Harrell, we no longer have an encampment at the Ballard commons, but we are so far in the hole that we have a very long way to go. We also need changes at the county level.

xracy 4y ago
Where did the encampment move to? Cause you realize they don't just go away? They move? The only way to make them go away is to actually find a place for them to live that you're happy with...
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Oh even if they find places for them to live, the problem grows with every inbound greyhound. In fact, that’s what happened: they would offer everyone places in a motel or tiny houses, they would leave, more people would move in the next day to take up the free space. The more resources we throw at this problem, the worse it gets. Which makes sense actually, who wouldn’t come to Seattle for a free tiny house and free things at the store (since shoplifting isn’t prosecuted anymore)?
  - LastTrain 4y ago
    It isn’t your failing, it is everyone else’s. The housing first strategy only works of a critical mass of communities participate.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      > It isn’t your failing, it is everyone else’s. Yes, that's exactly what they say! "It's not my fault I'm addicted to fent, its your fault!" > The housing first strategy only works of a critical mass of communities participate. It works for people whose main problem is lack of housing. It doesn't work with people who have other serious problems, all that happens is the house gets burned out and has to be constantly refurbished (so costs are around $100k/year per hard case housed).