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This is completely misleading. They didn’t end jack. The developer merely ended the automatic extension of the license and now requires you to stop, realize wha

This is completely misleading. They didn’t end jack. The developer merely ended the automatic extension of the license and now requires you to stop, realize what a tightwad you’re being, and ask for the next extension, which the developer said he will grant as promised. I see absolutely nothing wrong with adding a speed bump in the license extension process after 10 years of automatic extension, and “email the developer to ask for the next key” doesn’t imply the ending of anything whatsoever.

mylons 4y ago
thanks for clearing this up for the large swaths of us who only read the headline. most of us are devs and as a result, pretty well off to varying degrees. pay other devs for software you find useful.
- awillen 4y ago
  People did pay - the dev unilaterally set the terms and price of payment, and people people paid that price and expected to receive those terms.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    And they do. Did you read the article? The headline and blog post is misleading unless you read the whole article. At the end they note the developer does honor the license. You just have to read his appeal for support and email him asking to continue. This in no way violates the very loose terms of the original license for lifetime licensing.
jeroenhd 4y ago
Why does a lifetime extension need automatic extension in the first place? Selling lifetime licenses are terrible for your business; they bring in a load of money upfront, but your revenue stream will start to dry up as your customer pool gets saturated. It's a small fee for many people, but I'd argue it's an unnecessary one.
- mobiuscog 4y ago
  It worked okay for Minecraft. Lifetime licenses for anything that is related to a service is a terrible idea, in the same way that not linking cost to usage can also be problematic. For a standalone application, it can make a lot of sense along with bringing customer loyalty as they are treated well. FL Studio is another example, and they also demonstrated how you can add new revenue paths, whilst still providing excellent value to your original customers.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    I suppose you’ve not played Minecraft lately. Microsoft has loaded it with monetization. Yes you can buy a license to play Minecraft with updates for forever (although I don’t think they assure you of this, as the developer in question did). But you’ll be constantly bombarded with Marketplace appeals. My daughter and I play it all the time together with her friends, which since some play on a switch we have to pay a monthly fee for a realm. Then they’re constantly asking for “gold coins” to buy skins and stuff with. Microsoft injects animations into the Home Screen to pull you into the market place, which is rendered like a flashing crack casino for kids. I suppose that’s another option for the developer.
    - mobiuscog 4y ago
      I used Minecraft as an example for the original developer, who was certainly financially independent as a result of the success. For an ongoing concern, it is often the case that microtransactions, or additional paid features, are offered - some more 'strongly' than others - but if the core value proposition that was initially paid for remains intact, that seems reasonable. The excessive marketing of Minecraft monetisation by Microsoft, is certainly not something to praise, but it has not reduced the ability of original owners to continue playing. I can download the latest Java version (and server) and play completely offline on a LAN, with no problem, all as part of the price I first paid back when it was in alpha ~12 years ago. Realms need to be paid for, as they are the ongoing 'service' which needs to be funded.
bowsamic 4y ago
- kadoban 4y ago
  Then don't sell lifetime licenses. "You bought the thing I sold you? What an asshole."
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    - TylerE 4y ago
      So, if you bought a car, would you start making payments again after 10 years?
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        jjulius 4y ago
        >If you can only afford one car every 10 years then something is wrong with your living situation Yikes, you're really shooting from the hip when it comes to judging people across multiple posts, and you seem pretty elevated. Maybe put the screen down and go get some fresh air? Damn.
        Semaphor 4y ago
        There used to be a phrase back when mIRC was popular software: Don’t feed the trolls.
        Sharlin 4y ago
        Jesus Christ. You’re just digging yourself deeper and deeper, aren’t you?
counttheforks 4y ago
Expecting what is sold as a lifetime license to actually last the lifetime of the software is being a tightwad? That's just lying to your customers.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  But it is. I’m worried you might not have read the article. You are still entitled to your license after you read his appeal to your generosity and email him.
  - counttheforks 4y ago
    I have read it. Instead of honoring the license they sold, they changed them unilaterally without even contacting their customers and now they require you to periodically beg for a renewal of the lifetime license you own. This is scummy behavior. Also, I wonder how they plan to reimburse users for the days they weren't able to use the software they paid for. Note how they pointed out that replying to the emails begging for a renewal will "take time" during which the software is unusable.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I don’t get it. What can you point specifically to the lie? Did you read the article in full? The headline is wrong, the premise of the blog post is wrong. The only factual bit were the quotes from the developer in which he explains his appeal to his users generosity and provides instructions how to receive the renewed keys for their life time license. The only difference now is the keys weren’t automatically granted but require a manual step. That pause in the process just gives folks a chance to reflect on what a tightwad they are given the pretty compelling appeal of the developer where he says clearly he was young and naive 25 years ago (when he was likely basically a kid) and made a commitment he regrets now, but will honor none the less. That seems like exactly the right behavior for a solo developer to do in this situation. Everyone here is opining how he should be ended mIrc and making nirc as a licensed hard fork that people have to pay for instead. That’s really not in spirit of the original license, but folks somehow find it more tasteful than honoring the original license but caveating it for users as being a financial difficulty for the developer. I feel like I’ve stepped into moral bizarro land. The fork and rebrand to get out of the license agreement is sociopathic to my mind.
jjulius 4y ago
I don't disagree with the general point you're making (though speaking of "mildly misleading", there was never an "automatic extension" or a "license extension process", it was one payment and done). That said... >... realize what a tightwad you’re being... C'mon now. If you call something "lifetime", you can't be shockedpikachu.jpg when you change it to something else years later and people are surprised.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    Is this trolling?
    - mrd3v0 4y ago
      I am genuinely confused. April is too far away to start confidently saying "everyone knows a word doesn't mean what it means in a *license agreement*".
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >Everyone knows that lifetime licenses aren't really lifetime. Clearly "everyone" does not, which explains why you're being heavily downvoted elsewhere in this thread. Words have meaning, "lifetime" means "lifetime".
  - danuker 4y ago
    How is that true? Why should I not be able to use a piece of software for the rest of my life, even if the company dies? Of course, only through rejecting DRM can you achieve this.
  - awillen 4y ago
    Allow me to be a counterexample. I have purchased software licenses - the old fashioned kind, where you pay once instead of signing up for a subscription - and I expect that I will be able to use those pieces of software for the rest of my life without making another payment of any kind.
torpid 4y ago
The original license terms never specified an end and the need of an "extension" or renewal when I bought this software in 97. Like any other software company that have done similar things with free / lifetime software, he could have just dropped support for the original branded mIRC client, respun it into another program with most of the code base, add a few entirely useless features (maybe you can slap other people in channels with things other than large trouts!) and sell it under his new license model. He's still branding and selling it as mIRC. That's problematic.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  It never specified anything about how licensing would be distributed did it? He could have, you’re right. But he’s honoring the lifetime license instead. And all you have to do is read his appeal and email him to get the renewal key. And if you decide that’s what you want he will give you your key and you continue to enjoy your lifetime license. How is this worse than ending mIrc v1 development and requiring a relicense for the next version? I’d argue “life time license is honored” is more honorable than “relicense the same product so I don’t have to honor the original deal.” Am I missing something?
  - torpid 4y ago
    So I have to beg? A programmer so busy coding a high-demand bleeding edge IRC client all the kids are using that needs to resort to manual e-mail to distribute licenses to the people he owes it to, every one he has (or should have) the e-mail for that helped him pay the bills? Please.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      These points feel unrelated to whether he is breaking the license terms. I mention in another comment the whole email cycle bit seems unnecessarily tedious, but so is irc.
Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
I would agree up to the bump in the road part. Dev says email them and they will sort it BUT it will take time. So how do you avoid this? Well use a different type of speed bump. Make an automated site to issue new keys to these people (because they are entitled to it) and then use that website to explain the situation. Inform the user how many years of use they have had out of their initial purchase, then offer them a “pay what you like” purchase / donation to the next key. You could even set it up that if the user choices “free” for their next key, that new key will stop working in 6-12 months time and they will have to repeat the process. This will prevent people on hard times having to beg and wait for a new license on something they already have paid for, and will still allow those with means and value the use of the software to continue to support the software if they so wish. Heck I wouldn’t be surprised if they gave more. For me personally I stopped using mIRC years ago when I moved to a Linux based desktop for a few years, at which time I swapped to Hex Chat and just never swapped back when I returned to a Windows Desktop.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Yeah I think the email and wait part seems like more work for the dev ultimately and counterproductive to the point it looks passive aggressive. But I respect that he has opted to honor the life time licenses regardless rather than the jiggery of making a new version to “fake” honor the original commitment and get more licensing. Im frankly stunned so many people think the latter is more honorable than the former. For me I just use ircII.
  - Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
    > I think the email and wait part seems like more work for the dev ultimately and counterproductive to the point it looks passive aggressive. My first thought on that was that it was to add a delay to getting a new code and feed into the instant gratification to just paying up (if able and value paying again) and getting a new code there and then. Making a user email is "effort", low effort but still effort, which could disway some people asking for new codes. I also repect that they opt'ed to honor the license then opting to release "mIRC2" on new terms, I like you just felt that there are better ways to handle the process then the "email me and wait" option, which could lead them to recieve nasty emails during the process where an automated system could remove that (because while a user might be pissed off, its quickly resolved).

mylons 4y ago

thanks for clearing this up for the large swaths of us who only read the headline. most of us are devs and as a result, pretty well off to varying degrees. pay other devs for software you find useful.

awillen 4y ago
People did pay - the dev unilaterally set the terms and price of payment, and people people paid that price and expected to receive those terms.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  And they do. Did you read the article? The headline and blog post is misleading unless you read the whole article. At the end they note the developer does honor the license. You just have to read his appeal for support and email him asking to continue. This in no way violates the very loose terms of the original license for lifetime licensing.

jeroenhd 4y ago

Why does a lifetime extension need automatic extension in the first place? Selling lifetime licenses are terrible for your business; they bring in a load of money upfront, but your revenue stream will start to dry up as your customer pool gets saturated. It's a small fee for many people, but I'd argue it's an unnecessary one.

mobiuscog 4y ago
It worked okay for Minecraft. Lifetime licenses for anything that is related to a service is a terrible idea, in the same way that not linking cost to usage can also be problematic. For a standalone application, it can make a lot of sense along with bringing customer loyalty as they are treated well. FL Studio is another example, and they also demonstrated how you can add new revenue paths, whilst still providing excellent value to your original customers.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I suppose you’ve not played Minecraft lately. Microsoft has loaded it with monetization. Yes you can buy a license to play Minecraft with updates for forever (although I don’t think they assure you of this, as the developer in question did). But you’ll be constantly bombarded with Marketplace appeals. My daughter and I play it all the time together with her friends, which since some play on a switch we have to pay a monthly fee for a realm. Then they’re constantly asking for “gold coins” to buy skins and stuff with. Microsoft injects animations into the Home Screen to pull you into the market place, which is rendered like a flashing crack casino for kids. I suppose that’s another option for the developer.
  - mobiuscog 4y ago
    I used Minecraft as an example for the original developer, who was certainly financially independent as a result of the success. For an ongoing concern, it is often the case that microtransactions, or additional paid features, are offered - some more 'strongly' than others - but if the core value proposition that was initially paid for remains intact, that seems reasonable. The excessive marketing of Minecraft monetisation by Microsoft, is certainly not something to praise, but it has not reduced the ability of original owners to continue playing. I can download the latest Java version (and server) and play completely offline on a LAN, with no problem, all as part of the price I first paid back when it was in alpha ~12 years ago. Realms need to be paid for, as they are the ongoing 'service' which needs to be funded.

bowsamic 4y ago

kadoban 4y ago
Then don't sell lifetime licenses. "You bought the thing I sold you? What an asshole."
- bowsamic 4y ago
  - TylerE 4y ago
    So, if you bought a car, would you start making payments again after 10 years?
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      - jjulius 4y ago
        >If you can only afford one car every 10 years then something is wrong with your living situation Yikes, you're really shooting from the hip when it comes to judging people across multiple posts, and you seem pretty elevated. Maybe put the screen down and go get some fresh air? Damn.
        Semaphor 4y ago
        There used to be a phrase back when mIRC was popular software: Don’t feed the trolls.
      - Sharlin 4y ago
        Jesus Christ. You’re just digging yourself deeper and deeper, aren’t you?

counttheforks 4y ago

Expecting what is sold as a lifetime license to actually last the lifetime of the software is being a tightwad? That's just lying to your customers.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
But it is. I’m worried you might not have read the article. You are still entitled to your license after you read his appeal to your generosity and email him.
- counttheforks 4y ago
  I have read it. Instead of honoring the license they sold, they changed them unilaterally without even contacting their customers and now they require you to periodically beg for a renewal of the lifetime license you own. This is scummy behavior. Also, I wonder how they plan to reimburse users for the days they weren't able to use the software they paid for. Note how they pointed out that replying to the emails begging for a renewal will "take time" during which the software is unusable.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
I don’t get it. What can you point specifically to the lie? Did you read the article in full? The headline is wrong, the premise of the blog post is wrong. The only factual bit were the quotes from the developer in which he explains his appeal to his users generosity and provides instructions how to receive the renewed keys for their life time license. The only difference now is the keys weren’t automatically granted but require a manual step. That pause in the process just gives folks a chance to reflect on what a tightwad they are given the pretty compelling appeal of the developer where he says clearly he was young and naive 25 years ago (when he was likely basically a kid) and made a commitment he regrets now, but will honor none the less. That seems like exactly the right behavior for a solo developer to do in this situation. Everyone here is opining how he should be ended mIrc and making nirc as a licensed hard fork that people have to pay for instead. That’s really not in spirit of the original license, but folks somehow find it more tasteful than honoring the original license but caveating it for users as being a financial difficulty for the developer. I feel like I’ve stepped into moral bizarro land. The fork and rebrand to get out of the license agreement is sociopathic to my mind.

jjulius 4y ago

I don't disagree with the general point you're making (though speaking of "mildly misleading", there was never an "automatic extension" or a "license extension process", it was one payment and done). That said... >... realize what a tightwad you’re being... C'mon now. If you call something "lifetime", you can't be shockedpikachu.jpg when you change it to something else years later and people are surprised.

bowsamic 4y ago
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Is this trolling?
  - mrd3v0 4y ago
    I am genuinely confused. April is too far away to start confidently saying "everyone knows a word doesn't mean what it means in a *license agreement*".
- jjulius 4y ago
  >Everyone knows that lifetime licenses aren't really lifetime. Clearly "everyone" does not, which explains why you're being heavily downvoted elsewhere in this thread. Words have meaning, "lifetime" means "lifetime".
- danuker 4y ago
  How is that true? Why should I not be able to use a piece of software for the rest of my life, even if the company dies? Of course, only through rejecting DRM can you achieve this.
- awillen 4y ago
  Allow me to be a counterexample. I have purchased software licenses - the old fashioned kind, where you pay once instead of signing up for a subscription - and I expect that I will be able to use those pieces of software for the rest of my life without making another payment of any kind.

torpid 4y ago

The original license terms never specified an end and the need of an "extension" or renewal when I bought this software in 97. Like any other software company that have done similar things with free / lifetime software, he could have just dropped support for the original branded mIRC client, respun it into another program with most of the code base, add a few entirely useless features (maybe you can slap other people in channels with things other than large trouts!) and sell it under his new license model. He's still branding and selling it as mIRC. That's problematic.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
It never specified anything about how licensing would be distributed did it? He could have, you’re right. But he’s honoring the lifetime license instead. And all you have to do is read his appeal and email him to get the renewal key. And if you decide that’s what you want he will give you your key and you continue to enjoy your lifetime license. How is this worse than ending mIrc v1 development and requiring a relicense for the next version? I’d argue “life time license is honored” is more honorable than “relicense the same product so I don’t have to honor the original deal.” Am I missing something?
- torpid 4y ago
  So I have to beg? A programmer so busy coding a high-demand bleeding edge IRC client all the kids are using that needs to resort to manual e-mail to distribute licenses to the people he owes it to, every one he has (or should have) the e-mail for that helped him pay the bills? Please.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    These points feel unrelated to whether he is breaking the license terms. I mention in another comment the whole email cycle bit seems unnecessarily tedious, but so is irc.

Crosseye_Jack 4y ago

I would agree up to the bump in the road part. Dev says email them and they will sort it BUT it will take time. So how do you avoid this? Well use a different type of speed bump. Make an automated site to issue new keys to these people (because they are entitled to it) and then use that website to explain the situation. Inform the user how many years of use they have had out of their initial purchase, then offer them a “pay what you like” purchase / donation to the next key. You could even set it up that if the user choices “free” for their next key, that new key will stop working in 6-12 months time and they will have to repeat the process. This will prevent people on hard times having to beg and wait for a new license on something they already have paid for, and will still allow those with means and value the use of the software to continue to support the software if they so wish. Heck I wouldn’t be surprised if they gave more. For me personally I stopped using mIRC years ago when I moved to a Linux based desktop for a few years, at which time I swapped to Hex Chat and just never swapped back when I returned to a Windows Desktop.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Yeah I think the email and wait part seems like more work for the dev ultimately and counterproductive to the point it looks passive aggressive. But I respect that he has opted to honor the life time licenses regardless rather than the jiggery of making a new version to “fake” honor the original commitment and get more licensing. Im frankly stunned so many people think the latter is more honorable than the former. For me I just use ircII.
- Crosseye_Jack 4y ago
  > I think the email and wait part seems like more work for the dev ultimately and counterproductive to the point it looks passive aggressive. My first thought on that was that it was to add a delay to getting a new code and feed into the instant gratification to just paying up (if able and value paying again) and getting a new code there and then. Making a user email is "effort", low effort but still effort, which could disway some people asking for new codes. I also repect that they opt'ed to honor the license then opting to release "mIRC2" on new terms, I like you just felt that there are better ways to handle the process then the "email me and wait" option, which could lead them to recieve nasty emails during the process where an automated system could remove that (because while a user might be pissed off, its quickly resolved).