19 ms·

MIRC ended its lifetime license agreement with all who purchased it 10 years out

152 points by omnibrain 4y ago

readthenotes1 4y ago
I know a 92 year old doctor who is enjoying his lifetime subscription to the journal of the American medical association that he bought in the 1950s.
bhaak 4y ago
Other devs make a version 2 that is considered by the dev to be a different product and not subject to the lifetime license of the previous version. IANAL so I don't know how legally sound that is.
- hanafudafan 4y ago
  I don't anal but this is indeed a common practice.
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    It's old timey internet slang from the 1990s for "I Am Not A Lawyer" And for everyone else, don't give me push back for "old timey" - there's people out of college now that were born after 2000. Plenty of people weren't there. The adage of interaction on the internet: others are younger and less sober than you assume
    - jeremyjh 4y ago
      That whistling sound? It’s the joke flying over your head.
      - kristopolous 4y ago
        It was pretty funny in 1994 when I and everyone else thought of it and saw it the first 50 times. I don't think someone is that daft. Far more likely they're young and have never seen it. It's a 17 day old account. Why would someone seriously say that? I dunno, genZ is weirdly open about stuff and I really don't understand them. Best to not assume
    - bhaak 4y ago
      Old timey or not, I didn't expect to get that joke here. Searching HN, it is pretty regularly used here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=IANAL&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  It's normal. My Affinity license is a lifetime license. It doesn't include version 2, but I still have the license to the original. Similarly, any non-subscription Microsoft Office license is a "lifetime" license. You'll get security updates as long as that version is supported, and afterwards, well, it still works... your license just doesn't expire. It just also doesn't grant you access to newer versions.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    There’s a big difference between the two. What you mention is usually not called a lifetime license, while the mIRC one states "with current and future versions of mIRC"
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    It should be noted that the Microsoft Office license doesn't say anything about supporting future versions, while the mIRC license does.
jefftk 4y ago
If no one noticed for 3 years, and the developer is willing to give an extended license to anyone who asks, I have trouble getting very upset!
- Aloha 4y ago
  Same - I'm sympathetic of his desire to recapture a revenue stream for the product, particularly as the license is only 20 dollars.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    20 dollars is a lot of money in many parts of the world.
davewritescode 4y ago
Frankly I'm completely shocked to see that mIRC still gets updates. That said, this is basically what mobile developers do constantly. When you buy a "lifetime" license the software basically gets abandoned and a new version comes out where you get updates. If you've been using mIRC since 1995 and the developer has been keeping it up to date, perhaps you should be supporting them.
- p_l 4y ago
  I wonder how much the US DoD contract for licenses brings in
  - ok123456 4y ago
    They switched away from IRC to XMPP.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      There’s lots of IRC still floating around the DoD. But yes, XMPP has partially supplanted it.
    - p_l 4y ago
      I've seen XMPP floating around TAK platform as chat service (although apparently one could run chat service directly on the CoT protocol as well)
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yeah, never pay for an upgrade is just not a good business model because you presumably have sold to a larger and larger percentage of your potential market over time. Some sort of minor updates are free with discounted price for major version upgrades is a better idea in general.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > That said, this is basically what mobile developers do constantly. When you buy a "lifetime" license the software basically gets abandoned and a new version comes out where you get updates. While I never encountered this (there simply aren’t many apps I use), I regularly encounter this in completely free apps. Like my supermarket’s app. There’s a new version, that’s almost identical, slightly rearranged interface. Only one of them gets updated now. What?
faefox 4y ago
If you've been using mIRC with a lifetime license since 1995 you've paid roughly $.74 a year for the privilege. I'm sympathetic to the developer here.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  If the license was upheld as sold, "sympathy" would not be required.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > I'm sympathetic to the developer here. I'm not. You don't get to unilaterally revoke a contract just because it turned out to be unprofitable or unfavorable to you.
  - daviddever23box 4y ago
    One could simply cease providing support for product A, re-name it to product B, and charge for a new license with same effect.
    - b112 4y ago
      If the codebase is mostly the same, a court would laugh in your face. But regardless of that, discovering legal trickery to weasel out of a deal is morally bankrupt.
      - infecto 4y ago
        Interesting because this is how most other companies have handled it and I have yet to see any big news on court cases for it.
        b112 4y ago
        I have seen a lot of software with lifetime licenses, and if you actually look at the license, it lays out the scope. (EG, most licenses lay out... "v1.x updates only") I have not seen companies saying "Lifetime updates to Bord, forever!"... then calling a same product "Zdft" to get out of updates.
lzaaz 4y ago
[clicks Khaled's nose]
- dt3ft 4y ago
  beep!
- bitwize 4y ago
  /me slaps lzaaz around a bit with a large trout
jl6 4y ago
See also TextDrive's lifetime hosting offer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TextDrive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TextDrive
- faefox 4y ago
  RIP Dean Allen. :(
jhoelzel 4y ago
Guys its MIRC. buy that man a beer.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  Not using irc anymore and still bought the license a year a go.
gtirloni 4y ago
The fact that both developers and users thought that a lifetime deal was possible just speak to how much our field doesn't understand how to do business.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Airlines did this exact thing, so I wouldn’t blame our field. It’s learning hurdle for businesses in general.
  - Macha 4y ago
    The airline example was actually worse IMO, the cost (not opportunity cost, just flat out cost) of letting someone download a new exe is much less than that of an airplane seat
- newsclues 4y ago
  There is a way to have a sustainable business that sells lifetime deals and continues to support it. You generally need low maintenance and support costs, but if you setup an investment to generate consistent returns for minimal dev/support costs or have a recurring stream of new customers it is possible, or charge for new features and add ons. Do you really think that Adobe Photoshop CS purchases or video game purchases don't generate enough revenue to cover the costs and the only solution is recurring revenue?
  - Etheryte 4y ago
    I don't think Adobe is exactly a good example here since they stopped selling one-off licenses altogether and only offer a subscription based model now.
    - conductr 4y ago
      The old model worked for decades though. For them and their user's, subscriptions offer a low cost entry point which was always a challenge at their full price point.
dfee 4y ago
What a strange website. The article was written in a unique voice, so I wanted to find more from the author to get a better picture of their perspective. But all bios (that I checked) are dead ends (leading to general social media accounts). There is one employee at the company on LinkedIn. Are these people real? This is now more interesting to me than the article itself. There are 13 years of content, but I can’t tell much more.
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  Many times they are not real people. They are pseudonyms used by an editorial board, all or some of which use the name to publish articles that the board feel may blow back or be controversial. The practice is as old as publishing itself.
- ivanstojic 4y ago
  This is to me peak social media in 21st century. Somebody has been curating or authoring content for 13 years, but if they don't have clearly identifiable personalities that you can track down, we ask ourselves if they are real. In general, I don't care about the people behind the article content. They have their own lives that should be private, and the articles should be able to stand on their own merit.
- abbeyj 4y ago
  The image of "Ryan" in the footer seems to be taken from a photographer's portfolio page: https://headshotcrew.com/studiomcgrath https://headshotcrew.com/studiomcgrath
sgjohnson 4y ago
> If a lifetime license with no other terms other than “it’s for life! Including all future versions” can be pulled at any time, what does this say about the risk of buying into any lifetime license with any other company? This turns into a high-risk investment as all rules would be thrown out the window. It's not particularly difficult to just retire and cease supporting the old product with the "lifetime license", and release a new one, that's substantially the same, but with a different license. Give it a facelift or something.
antiterra 4y ago
I’ve always personally disliked MIRC as a product, mostly from a UI standpoint. I feel there were also some bad choices around its scripting support, which in the early days, put casual users at risk of malicious actors. However, I think KMB made the lifetime agreement in good faith as a (mostly?) solo developer. I don’t see a huge amount of growth in Windows IRC usage, so this would otherwise likely be abandoned or largely unmaintained. If someone is big on him keeping his word and he sends the key, I don’t see a huge problem. The main concern I would have is in the extremely unlikely situation there was a ‘important’ deployment of mIRC that suddenly stopped working without warning, but that would have been three years ago.
jmull 4y ago
> Again, a bold move that doesn’t quite walk the line of honesty. I don't see how the statement isn't honest. I'd be more careful about accusations of dishonesty. As others have mentioned, devs in this situation typically just come out with a v2 that isn't covered by the perpetual license... or stop development altogether. Here the developer is at least admitting the license was naive and giving a still-generous 10 years and will actually give you lifetime license after all, if you're willing to write an email and wait a little. > ...I find this to be an extremely fascinating and concerning topic Because what we really need to worry about in tech is the little guy screwing you over after 20 years?
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > and will actually give you lifetime license after all, if you're willing to write an email and wait a little. He doesn't say that you'll get a lifetime licence. In fact, if he now regrets ever issuing lifetime licences, it seems pretty unlikely that he'll issue new ones. I hate software licensing models. I wish developers would just sell proper support contracts.
  - adql 4y ago
    > I hate software licensing models. I wish developers would just sell proper support contracts. Some (dare I say most) users would be entirely fine with staying with old version of most of the tools they use, especially if use of tool is basic.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      and...it's mIRC. It hasn't had major changes in that decade. It still looks like it did in 1998.
      - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
        > It still looks like it did in 1998. Which is what makes it one of my favorite programs.
- 4y ago
hsuduebc2 4y ago
It is not fair but it is understandable.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
This is completely misleading. They didn’t end jack. The developer merely ended the automatic extension of the license and now requires you to stop, realize what a tightwad you’re being, and ask for the next extension, which the developer said he will grant as promised. I see absolutely nothing wrong with adding a speed bump in the license extension process after 10 years of automatic extension, and “email the developer to ask for the next key” doesn’t imply the ending of anything whatsoever.
- mylons 4y ago
  thanks for clearing this up for the large swaths of us who only read the headline. most of us are devs and as a result, pretty well off to varying degrees. pay other devs for software you find useful.
  - awillen 4y ago
    People did pay - the dev unilaterally set the terms and price of payment, and people people paid that price and expected to receive those terms.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      And they do. Did you read the article? The headline and blog post is misleading unless you read the whole article. At the end they note the developer does honor the license. You just have to read his appeal for support and email him asking to continue. This in no way violates the very loose terms of the original license for lifetime licensing.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  Why does a lifetime extension need automatic extension in the first place? Selling lifetime licenses are terrible for your business; they bring in a load of money upfront, but your revenue stream will start to dry up as your customer pool gets saturated. It's a small fee for many people, but I'd argue it's an unnecessary one.
mistrial9 4y ago
Adobe Systems - let's talk? I have a customer ID in their system .. from 10+ years ago! As said well here at YNews, the people who are most unhappy with the cloudy-Adobe are the people (like me) that were committed and loyal, so long ago. You know that Adobe is going to 'exit' the digital type market completely? That is how different 2022 is from 2000. The day my registered and paid for, ten year old Adobe software stops working, I will personally pay for and print t-shirts and hand them out to anyone in front of the SF building. Its not going to be pretty, Adobe! Let me pay for that old software then.. without BS cloud marketing traps. I will give some reasonable amount of USD and you do NOTHING and it all works. deal ?
franga2000 4y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a normal piece of software, not some kind of cloud service. If that's the case, the developer has no ongoing costs from lifetime license users besides hosting downloads and support. Hosting a few MBs to maybe a few thousand users per month is basically free these days, so if they just discontinued support for those users but let them keep using the software, the fallout would surely be much smaller. Losing support and even updates a decade into a very cheap "lifetime" license is fine. But the same executable that worked yesterday not working anymore is entirely unacceptable.
- danuker 4y ago
  > But the same executable that worked yesterday not working anymore is entirely unacceptable. I agree completely. But a problem is APIs are evolving. If security vulnerabilities get patched in libraries, and their new version becomes incompatible with the executable, you have to choose between staying safe and the program still working.
  - franga2000 4y ago
    Yes, you have to chose, but in this case, users weren't given a choice.
- nebulous1 4y ago
  That's my take too. The proprietary software licence I could agree with is a perpetual licence combined with limited updates. I can accept that mIRC made a mistake when they offered free updates to all future versions, and needed to walk that part back. The problem with not accepting this is that mIRC could just be forced to rerelease as mmIRC, which is bad for everybody (users lose updates unless they switch, author loses branding). However, as you say, it should have just been the right to updates that was walked back, not the perpetual licence for the existing software.
  - behringer 4y ago
    Most companies just stop offering the lifetime license to new customers...
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
In some countries like Norway, a lifetime sentence is 21 years. In most European countries you're unlikely to get more than that even for murder except under special circumstances. If the developer chooses to end a lifetime license after 25 years.. he has already basically fulfilled his end of the bargain IMO. Especially since he isn't even terminating the license, just asking people to personally renew.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  In countries like Norway, they tell you that a life sentence is 21 years when you get it.
  - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
    Didn't say it's fair. Just understandable. If you use something for more than 25 years and are too greedy to give a couple bucks then that's worse than being unfair IMO.
    - hellotomyrars 4y ago
      When I buy something I should get what I paid for. It isn’t greedy, it is a square deal. If you choose to remove what I paid for or at least put a passive aggressive requirement for me to email you after posting your sob story in order to continue to get what I paid for, that isn’t a a square deal. Look it isn’t that much money, and I’m sure the developer could use more, but the right thing to do is to grandfather those people in, instead of now guilt tripping them into paying more. You can post the appeal and explain the same way without suspending current lifetime licenses. It’ll do a lot more for goodwill than going the other way for it.
      - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
        It's 25 years. That's enough time for him to have a child and have him take over the mIRC business. It's a solo dev working on a piece of software since 1995, cut him some slack, jeez.. You're right about the expectations placed on trade. I just expect a different set of requirements from large corporations and small devs.
neilv 4y ago
[flagged]
Overtonwindow 4y ago
I understand both sides and willing to give Khaled a pass. The maintenance of mIRC has been more of a labor of love and it's a regrettable situation, but his devotion and efforts to the community have earned a pass from me.
microtherion 4y ago
I'm more sympathetic to that model than with the business of model of some companies to "pre-sell" you some vaporware feature that you then spend the lifetime of the product waiting to actually work as advertised.
PM_me_your_math 4y ago
I mean if you like the software, and dev is still updating it, pay the man.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I'm not sure what's more surprising to me: that people still use mIRC, or that people were willing to pay for it in the past.
cmeacham98 4y ago
It is honestly shocking the number of posters here that seem to think it's completely morally ok to renege on the deal with these lifetime subscribers because the author didn't make much profit? To be frank, if these purchases are no longer worth supporting, those customers should receive a full refund.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  Caveat emptor should definitely be applied in this situation. Sorry you feel like someone should do something different, but you didn't enter into a legal contract, you bought software from a developer. They ultimately did not earn your trust. Live and learn?
  - detaro 4y ago
    If there is a "license agreement" which terms are under debate, there is a legal contract that was entered.
- Joeri 4y ago
  IANAL, but as I understand contract law you can’t be expected to perform the contract if circumstances change too much (law of frustration). The developer here indicated they never expected to be providing support for a quarter century, and it doesn’t seem unreasonable a court would agree they aren’t bound by the “lifetime” license.
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    I am also not a lawyer, but I seriously doubt a court would accept "I didn't expect to actually have to live up to my end of the deal!" to be a valid change in circumstances. By this logic almost anyone could back out of a long term contract: "I didn't expect to still be in business 24 years later when I gave you that 25 year warranty!" To quote the top few results I got searching online for "law of frustration": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_in_English_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_in_English_law > it is "not lightly to be invoked to relieve contracting parties of the normal consequences of imprudent bargains" https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/frustration_of_purpose https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/frustration_of_purpose > when a later and unforeseen event impedes the buyer's purpose for entering into the contract https://www.upcounsel.com/frustration-of-contract-definition https://www.upcounsel.com/frustration-of-contract-definition (emphasis mine) > However, frustration of contract is not acceptable in all circumstances nor in all types of contracts. It is acceptable when the law finds it unfair to force a party to comply with the contract terms ___due to events that are outside of or beyond their control___.
anonymousiam 4y ago
A few years ago I dropped $500 on a "perpetual" Crossover license. I did it more to support their excellent work than to assure myself of a lifetime of free upgrades. That being said, I think a person/company should stand by their word and honor commitments they've made. After 35 years, I'm still angry with US Robotics/3Com for terminating the "lifetime" support of their Courier modems.
- behringer 4y ago
  tbh, it would probably be pretty simple to have a senior support person be in charge of old gear like that. I mean what would that entail? One or two calls a year. The only reason they wouldn't do it is if they want business to actually upgrade equipment that's still working. Which brings us back to the real topic of this entire thread, why offer "lifetime" support if you're really not going to do that? We all know the answer. It's because you want the money that promise brings.
otterpro 4y ago
I've got bitten by "lifetime" deals before. One was Zoolz backup, which offered a lifetime, but stopped it after only 2 years after I paid for the service. Another is a web hosting service that offered "lifetime" webhosting, which seemed legit, but then after couple of years, the company folded or at least what they claim... I suspect they've moved on and started another company in place.
behringer 4y ago
I was called stupid when I bought my license. Now I really do feel stupid.
andrelaszlo 4y ago
One way that wouldn't annoy me personally, as a user, would be to let the lifetime license stop working but only for new versions of the program.
Minor49er 4y ago
I still have the confirmation of when I purchased my license back in January of 2011 for $15. That feels like an entire lifetime ago
yrgulation 4y ago
“Again, a bold move that doesn’t quite walk the line of honesty.” In a world of googles facebooks and amazons calling this guy dishonest is…dishonest in itself. As others have said he could have simply created a new mirc or just abandon it. Instead he was _honest_ about it. Instead of making all sorts of dodgy deals that sell our data he states his intentions and his reasons. I applaud this move even if i am affected by it.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  He took money in exchange for a lifetime license, and is now revoking those licenses. I don't see how you can ever call that "honest" unless we have fundamentally different ideas about what honesty is. It can be honest to say: I made a term I can't support - I am going out of business as a result. It can be honest to say: I made a term that is no longer worth my time - I am going to stop working on this as a result. It's sure as fuck not honest to say: I want the marketing from the current name and user base, but I made a bad deal so I'm going to break my terms because I want more money. It feels like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. Frankly - I'd much rather he own by just going out of business or by end-of-lifing the product and launching a new one.
jd24 4y ago
Seems like a scumbag thing to be honest. You can't entice people to pay for a "lifetime" license and just take it away. Now people who expected to have lifetime access to the software need to periodically beg him through email?
cwkoss 4y ago
Everyone who paid for licenses should form a class action lawsuit to sue for refunds as the lifetime license is no longer being honored. Then they should settle for putting the software into the public domain in lieu of repayment.
Krisjohn 4y ago
The new Manycam owners also trashed lifetime licences. They immediately released version 8 and refused to provide perpetual keys for the new version to customers that had bought lifetime licences. They also refused to offer any refunds.
jackvalentine 4y ago
Wow yep, my licence purchased in 2010 (after a decade of unlicensed use I thought now I have some money better throw it their way!) has expired. Emailed asking how to fix the "error". A fair way to do this would have been: when activating an old licence have a dialogue that explains the situation and asks if you mind contributing again, or links to a page where you can automatically renew your licence for free but again explains the situation and asks for a contribution - or email all the licence holders explaining the situation and asking if they mind chipping in. If any of these had happened I'd have gladly proffered another $20. Unilaterally killing it off isn't any way okay. I'm not going to give another cent to this prick.
MikusR 4y ago
Total Commander is 29 years old, still supported and updated. Still covered by the original licence.
tengwar2 4y ago
This is very mild. Cases that have affected me: 1) Augmentra made a mobile phone app called Viewranger which is useful for walking. It presents topological maps, and uses GPX files to plan a route or record a trail. I bought the 1:50000 maps for the whole of the UK for about £200, plus various other maps over the years. All of these were lifetime licences. Augmentra decided that they wanted to be rent-seekers, and brought out some similar software with a periodic licence fee. No problem there. But they also pushed out an "upgrade" to Viewranger which disabled it completely on a certain date. That's theft, to my mind. 2) TiVo in the UK used to sell one PVR. You could pay a subscription for the TV schedule which you needed to make it work effectively, or you could buy a lifetime subscription. A few years later they wanted to bring out a new model, and they shut down the data feed for the old model. 3) Garmin satnavs can be bought with lifetime map updates for particular areas. The problem is that with older models they used a proprietary protocol to get the data in and out - and that stopped working. Look it up on the web site and they claim that the problem is the increasing size of the map data, and that the older models don't have the space. No, there's plenty of space, you're just not honouring the deal. And we're talking about an expensive weather-sealed motorcycle model here, not bargain basement.
sombragris 4y ago
IAAL, although I'm licensed to practice in my country (Paraguay, South America) which has a legal system quite different from the Anglo-Saxon sphere. So take this with a ton of salt. This is not legal advice and the whole shebang... Articles 671 and 672 of our Civil Code say basically that if there is a manifest disproportion between duties of each party due to one party's need, recklessness or inexperience, or if over the course of time the burden of one of the parties becomes too onerous, the contract might be resolved or "equitably modified". This move would fall under one of these cases and the guy could offer newer, more equitable terms. Anyway, even when I was a heavy IRC user I used mIRC sparingly. Today, I would use Konversation or Hexchat for GUI clients, and weechat or epic5 on console.
nirvgorilla 4y ago
mIRC.v7.72.Incl.Keygen.and.Patch-RLTS Oh it looks like it's free. https://files.catbox.moe/01i8mm.zip https://files.catbox.moe/01i8mm.zip Never pay for software. They always do this crap to you.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
brainchild-adam 4y ago
Technically, it's a breach of the license agreement Khaled entered into with his customers. It seems he realized that the lifetime license did not work out for him as intended, and he started looking for a way out. Possibly there are more users on those lifetime licenses than those on newer licenses, or maybe just enough to, in his mind, warrant this step. He obviously does not want to abandon the project. He might have no other way of communicating with some/enough/many/all of his lifetime users, so he chooses to use the one thing he has---the (re-)registration process. Or maybe this is the way, in his mind, to get their attention. Maybe because of GDPR. He seems to reason that after all this time, asking for another contribution is only fair (even though it goes against the original license). He does offer lifetime users the option to email him and get around the need to pay again. I can understand both sides, actually. While in principle I disagree strongly with one-sided changes to agreements such as this, at the end of the day we are all only human, and we have to somehow find a way to make life work for us. It has to be sustainable and worthwhile. I see Khaled trying his best, even though I would probably have recommended a different course of action. This is not Big Corp effing us over. (Which, sadly, happens a lot, and has much more serious consequences.) This is a single developer with, I believe, no ill intentions, possibly making an understandable but questionable move. The author of the article seems to look more at the principle of the question that this specific case illustrates. I agree with the principle. We need to be able to trust agreements we entered into.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
Netlimiter just did something similar, but you can keep version 4 with the original license. That software was essentially done, I have no idea why they "waste" money on it. They could keep it as is and just sell licenses with no support

152 points by omnibrain 4y ago

I know a 92 year old doctor who is enjoying his lifetime subscription to the journal of the American medical association that he bought in the 1950s.

bhaak 4y ago

Other devs make a version 2 that is considered by the dev to be a different product and not subject to the lifetime license of the previous version. IANAL so I don't know how legally sound that is.

hanafudafan 4y ago
I don't anal but this is indeed a common practice.
- kristopolous 4y ago
  It's old timey internet slang from the 1990s for "I Am Not A Lawyer" And for everyone else, don't give me push back for "old timey" - there's people out of college now that were born after 2000. Plenty of people weren't there. The adage of interaction on the internet: others are younger and less sober than you assume
  - jeremyjh 4y ago
    That whistling sound? It’s the joke flying over your head.
    - kristopolous 4y ago
      It was pretty funny in 1994 when I and everyone else thought of it and saw it the first 50 times. I don't think someone is that daft. Far more likely they're young and have never seen it. It's a 17 day old account. Why would someone seriously say that? I dunno, genZ is weirdly open about stuff and I really don't understand them. Best to not assume
  - bhaak 4y ago
    Old timey or not, I didn't expect to get that joke here. Searching HN, it is pretty regularly used here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=IANAL&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
ocdtrekkie 4y ago
It's normal. My Affinity license is a lifetime license. It doesn't include version 2, but I still have the license to the original. Similarly, any non-subscription Microsoft Office license is a "lifetime" license. You'll get security updates as long as that version is supported, and afterwards, well, it still works... your license just doesn't expire. It just also doesn't grant you access to newer versions.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  There’s a big difference between the two. What you mention is usually not called a lifetime license, while the mIRC one states "with current and future versions of mIRC"
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  It should be noted that the Microsoft Office license doesn't say anything about supporting future versions, while the mIRC license does.

jefftk 4y ago

If no one noticed for 3 years, and the developer is willing to give an extended license to anyone who asks, I have trouble getting very upset!

Aloha 4y ago
Same - I'm sympathetic of his desire to recapture a revenue stream for the product, particularly as the license is only 20 dollars.
- int_19h 4y ago
  20 dollars is a lot of money in many parts of the world.

davewritescode 4y ago

Frankly I'm completely shocked to see that mIRC still gets updates. That said, this is basically what mobile developers do constantly. When you buy a "lifetime" license the software basically gets abandoned and a new version comes out where you get updates. If you've been using mIRC since 1995 and the developer has been keeping it up to date, perhaps you should be supporting them.

p_l 4y ago
I wonder how much the US DoD contract for licenses brings in
- ok123456 4y ago
  They switched away from IRC to XMPP.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    There’s lots of IRC still floating around the DoD. But yes, XMPP has partially supplanted it.
  - p_l 4y ago
    I've seen XMPP floating around TAK platform as chat service (although apparently one could run chat service directly on the CoT protocol as well)
ghaff 4y ago
Yeah, never pay for an upgrade is just not a good business model because you presumably have sold to a larger and larger percentage of your potential market over time. Some sort of minor updates are free with discounted price for major version upgrades is a better idea in general.
Semaphor 4y ago
> That said, this is basically what mobile developers do constantly. When you buy a "lifetime" license the software basically gets abandoned and a new version comes out where you get updates. While I never encountered this (there simply aren’t many apps I use), I regularly encounter this in completely free apps. Like my supermarket’s app. There’s a new version, that’s almost identical, slightly rearranged interface. Only one of them gets updated now. What?

faefox 4y ago

If you've been using mIRC with a lifetime license since 1995 you've paid roughly $.74 a year for the privilege. I'm sympathetic to the developer here.

jqpabc123 4y ago
If the license was upheld as sold, "sympathy" would not be required.
josephcsible 4y ago
> I'm sympathetic to the developer here. I'm not. You don't get to unilaterally revoke a contract just because it turned out to be unprofitable or unfavorable to you.
- daviddever23box 4y ago
  One could simply cease providing support for product A, re-name it to product B, and charge for a new license with same effect.
  - b112 4y ago
    If the codebase is mostly the same, a court would laugh in your face. But regardless of that, discovering legal trickery to weasel out of a deal is morally bankrupt.
    - infecto 4y ago
      Interesting because this is how most other companies have handled it and I have yet to see any big news on court cases for it.
      - b112 4y ago
        I have seen a lot of software with lifetime licenses, and if you actually look at the license, it lays out the scope. (EG, most licenses lay out... "v1.x updates only") I have not seen companies saying "Lifetime updates to Bord, forever!"... then calling a same product "Zdft" to get out of updates.

lzaaz 4y ago

[clicks Khaled's nose]

dt3ft 4y ago
beep!
bitwize 4y ago
/me slaps lzaaz around a bit with a large trout

jl6 4y ago

See also TextDrive's lifetime hosting offer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TextDrive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TextDrive

faefox 4y ago
RIP Dean Allen. :(

jhoelzel 4y ago

Guys its MIRC. buy that man a beer.

yrgulation 4y ago
Not using irc anymore and still bought the license a year a go.

gtirloni 4y ago

The fact that both developers and users thought that a lifetime deal was possible just speak to how much our field doesn't understand how to do business.

falcolas 4y ago
Airlines did this exact thing, so I wouldn’t blame our field. It’s learning hurdle for businesses in general.
- Macha 4y ago
  The airline example was actually worse IMO, the cost (not opportunity cost, just flat out cost) of letting someone download a new exe is much less than that of an airplane seat
newsclues 4y ago
There is a way to have a sustainable business that sells lifetime deals and continues to support it. You generally need low maintenance and support costs, but if you setup an investment to generate consistent returns for minimal dev/support costs or have a recurring stream of new customers it is possible, or charge for new features and add ons. Do you really think that Adobe Photoshop CS purchases or video game purchases don't generate enough revenue to cover the costs and the only solution is recurring revenue?
- Etheryte 4y ago
  I don't think Adobe is exactly a good example here since they stopped selling one-off licenses altogether and only offer a subscription based model now.
  - conductr 4y ago
    The old model worked for decades though. For them and their user's, subscriptions offer a low cost entry point which was always a challenge at their full price point.

dfee 4y ago

What a strange website. The article was written in a unique voice, so I wanted to find more from the author to get a better picture of their perspective. But all bios (that I checked) are dead ends (leading to general social media accounts). There is one employee at the company on LinkedIn. Are these people real? This is now more interesting to me than the article itself. There are 13 years of content, but I can’t tell much more.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago
Many times they are not real people. They are pseudonyms used by an editorial board, all or some of which use the name to publish articles that the board feel may blow back or be controversial. The practice is as old as publishing itself.
ivanstojic 4y ago
This is to me peak social media in 21st century. Somebody has been curating or authoring content for 13 years, but if they don't have clearly identifiable personalities that you can track down, we ask ourselves if they are real. In general, I don't care about the people behind the article content. They have their own lives that should be private, and the articles should be able to stand on their own merit.
abbeyj 4y ago
The image of "Ryan" in the footer seems to be taken from a photographer's portfolio page: https://headshotcrew.com/studiomcgrath https://headshotcrew.com/studiomcgrath

sgjohnson 4y ago

> If a lifetime license with no other terms other than “it’s for life! Including all future versions” can be pulled at any time, what does this say about the risk of buying into any lifetime license with any other company? This turns into a high-risk investment as all rules would be thrown out the window. It's not particularly difficult to just retire and cease supporting the old product with the "lifetime license", and release a new one, that's substantially the same, but with a different license. Give it a facelift or something.

antiterra 4y ago

I’ve always personally disliked MIRC as a product, mostly from a UI standpoint. I feel there were also some bad choices around its scripting support, which in the early days, put casual users at risk of malicious actors. However, I think KMB made the lifetime agreement in good faith as a (mostly?) solo developer. I don’t see a huge amount of growth in Windows IRC usage, so this would otherwise likely be abandoned or largely unmaintained. If someone is big on him keeping his word and he sends the key, I don’t see a huge problem. The main concern I would have is in the extremely unlikely situation there was a ‘important’ deployment of mIRC that suddenly stopped working without warning, but that would have been three years ago.

jmull 4y ago

> Again, a bold move that doesn’t quite walk the line of honesty. I don't see how the statement isn't honest. I'd be more careful about accusations of dishonesty. As others have mentioned, devs in this situation typically just come out with a v2 that isn't covered by the perpetual license... or stop development altogether. Here the developer is at least admitting the license was naive and giving a still-generous 10 years and will actually give you lifetime license after all, if you're willing to write an email and wait a little. > ...I find this to be an extremely fascinating and concerning topic Because what we really need to worry about in tech is the little guy screwing you over after 20 years?

denton-scratch 4y ago
> and will actually give you lifetime license after all, if you're willing to write an email and wait a little. He doesn't say that you'll get a lifetime licence. In fact, if he now regrets ever issuing lifetime licences, it seems pretty unlikely that he'll issue new ones. I hate software licensing models. I wish developers would just sell proper support contracts.
- adql 4y ago
  > I hate software licensing models. I wish developers would just sell proper support contracts. Some (dare I say most) users would be entirely fine with staying with old version of most of the tools they use, especially if use of tool is basic.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    and...it's mIRC. It hasn't had major changes in that decade. It still looks like it did in 1998.
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      > It still looks like it did in 1998. Which is what makes it one of my favorite programs.
4y ago

hsuduebc2 4y ago

It is not fair but it is understandable.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

This is completely misleading. They didn’t end jack. The developer merely ended the automatic extension of the license and now requires you to stop, realize what a tightwad you’re being, and ask for the next extension, which the developer said he will grant as promised. I see absolutely nothing wrong with adding a speed bump in the license extension process after 10 years of automatic extension, and “email the developer to ask for the next key” doesn’t imply the ending of anything whatsoever.

mylons 4y ago
thanks for clearing this up for the large swaths of us who only read the headline. most of us are devs and as a result, pretty well off to varying degrees. pay other devs for software you find useful.
- awillen 4y ago
  People did pay - the dev unilaterally set the terms and price of payment, and people people paid that price and expected to receive those terms.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    And they do. Did you read the article? The headline and blog post is misleading unless you read the whole article. At the end they note the developer does honor the license. You just have to read his appeal for support and email him asking to continue. This in no way violates the very loose terms of the original license for lifetime licensing.
jeroenhd 4y ago
Why does a lifetime extension need automatic extension in the first place? Selling lifetime licenses are terrible for your business; they bring in a load of money upfront, but your revenue stream will start to dry up as your customer pool gets saturated. It's a small fee for many people, but I'd argue it's an unnecessary one.

mistrial9 4y ago

Adobe Systems - let's talk? I have a customer ID in their system .. from 10+ years ago! As said well here at YNews, the people who are most unhappy with the cloudy-Adobe are the people (like me) that were committed and loyal, so long ago. You know that Adobe is going to 'exit' the digital type market completely? That is how different 2022 is from 2000. The day my registered and paid for, ten year old Adobe software stops working, I will personally pay for and print t-shirts and hand them out to anyone in front of the SF building. Its not going to be pretty, Adobe! Let me pay for that old software then.. without BS cloud marketing traps. I will give some reasonable amount of USD and you do NOTHING and it all works. deal ?

franga2000 4y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a normal piece of software, not some kind of cloud service. If that's the case, the developer has no ongoing costs from lifetime license users besides hosting downloads and support. Hosting a few MBs to maybe a few thousand users per month is basically free these days, so if they just discontinued support for those users but let them keep using the software, the fallout would surely be much smaller. Losing support and even updates a decade into a very cheap "lifetime" license is fine. But the same executable that worked yesterday not working anymore is entirely unacceptable.

danuker 4y ago
> But the same executable that worked yesterday not working anymore is entirely unacceptable. I agree completely. But a problem is APIs are evolving. If security vulnerabilities get patched in libraries, and their new version becomes incompatible with the executable, you have to choose between staying safe and the program still working.
- franga2000 4y ago
  Yes, you have to chose, but in this case, users weren't given a choice.
nebulous1 4y ago
That's my take too. The proprietary software licence I could agree with is a perpetual licence combined with limited updates. I can accept that mIRC made a mistake when they offered free updates to all future versions, and needed to walk that part back. The problem with not accepting this is that mIRC could just be forced to rerelease as mmIRC, which is bad for everybody (users lose updates unless they switch, author loses branding). However, as you say, it should have just been the right to updates that was walked back, not the perpetual licence for the existing software.
- behringer 4y ago
  Most companies just stop offering the lifetime license to new customers...

dj_mc_merlin 4y ago

In some countries like Norway, a lifetime sentence is 21 years. In most European countries you're unlikely to get more than that even for murder except under special circumstances. If the developer chooses to end a lifetime license after 25 years.. he has already basically fulfilled his end of the bargain IMO. Especially since he isn't even terminating the license, just asking people to personally renew.

pessimizer 4y ago
In countries like Norway, they tell you that a life sentence is 21 years when you get it.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
  Didn't say it's fair. Just understandable. If you use something for more than 25 years and are too greedy to give a couple bucks then that's worse than being unfair IMO.
  - hellotomyrars 4y ago
    When I buy something I should get what I paid for. It isn’t greedy, it is a square deal. If you choose to remove what I paid for or at least put a passive aggressive requirement for me to email you after posting your sob story in order to continue to get what I paid for, that isn’t a a square deal. Look it isn’t that much money, and I’m sure the developer could use more, but the right thing to do is to grandfather those people in, instead of now guilt tripping them into paying more. You can post the appeal and explain the same way without suspending current lifetime licenses. It’ll do a lot more for goodwill than going the other way for it.
    - dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
      It's 25 years. That's enough time for him to have a child and have him take over the mIRC business. It's a solo dev working on a piece of software since 1995, cut him some slack, jeez.. You're right about the expectations placed on trade. I just expect a different set of requirements from large corporations and small devs.

neilv 4y ago

[flagged]

Overtonwindow 4y ago

I understand both sides and willing to give Khaled a pass. The maintenance of mIRC has been more of a labor of love and it's a regrettable situation, but his devotion and efforts to the community have earned a pass from me.

microtherion 4y ago

I'm more sympathetic to that model than with the business of model of some companies to "pre-sell" you some vaporware feature that you then spend the lifetime of the product waiting to actually work as advertised.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago

I mean if you like the software, and dev is still updating it, pay the man.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

I'm not sure what's more surprising to me: that people still use mIRC, or that people were willing to pay for it in the past.

cmeacham98 4y ago

It is honestly shocking the number of posters here that seem to think it's completely morally ok to renege on the deal with these lifetime subscribers because the author didn't make much profit? To be frank, if these purchases are no longer worth supporting, those customers should receive a full refund.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
Caveat emptor should definitely be applied in this situation. Sorry you feel like someone should do something different, but you didn't enter into a legal contract, you bought software from a developer. They ultimately did not earn your trust. Live and learn?
- detaro 4y ago
  If there is a "license agreement" which terms are under debate, there is a legal contract that was entered.
Joeri 4y ago
IANAL, but as I understand contract law you can’t be expected to perform the contract if circumstances change too much (law of frustration). The developer here indicated they never expected to be providing support for a quarter century, and it doesn’t seem unreasonable a court would agree they aren’t bound by the “lifetime” license.
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  I am also not a lawyer, but I seriously doubt a court would accept "I didn't expect to actually have to live up to my end of the deal!" to be a valid change in circumstances. By this logic almost anyone could back out of a long term contract: "I didn't expect to still be in business 24 years later when I gave you that 25 year warranty!" To quote the top few results I got searching online for "law of frustration": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_in_English_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_in_English_law > it is "not lightly to be invoked to relieve contracting parties of the normal consequences of imprudent bargains" https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/frustration_of_purpose https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/frustration_of_purpose > when a later and unforeseen event impedes the buyer's purpose for entering into the contract https://www.upcounsel.com/frustration-of-contract-definition https://www.upcounsel.com/frustration-of-contract-definition (emphasis mine) > However, frustration of contract is not acceptable in all circumstances nor in all types of contracts. It is acceptable when the law finds it unfair to force a party to comply with the contract terms ___due to events that are outside of or beyond their control___.

anonymousiam 4y ago

A few years ago I dropped $500 on a "perpetual" Crossover license. I did it more to support their excellent work than to assure myself of a lifetime of free upgrades. That being said, I think a person/company should stand by their word and honor commitments they've made. After 35 years, I'm still angry with US Robotics/3Com for terminating the "lifetime" support of their Courier modems.

behringer 4y ago
tbh, it would probably be pretty simple to have a senior support person be in charge of old gear like that. I mean what would that entail? One or two calls a year. The only reason they wouldn't do it is if they want business to actually upgrade equipment that's still working. Which brings us back to the real topic of this entire thread, why offer "lifetime" support if you're really not going to do that? We all know the answer. It's because you want the money that promise brings.

otterpro 4y ago

I've got bitten by "lifetime" deals before. One was Zoolz backup, which offered a lifetime, but stopped it after only 2 years after I paid for the service. Another is a web hosting service that offered "lifetime" webhosting, which seemed legit, but then after couple of years, the company folded or at least what they claim... I suspect they've moved on and started another company in place.

behringer 4y ago

I was called stupid when I bought my license. Now I really do feel stupid.

andrelaszlo 4y ago

One way that wouldn't annoy me personally, as a user, would be to let the lifetime license stop working but only for new versions of the program.

Minor49er 4y ago

I still have the confirmation of when I purchased my license back in January of 2011 for $15. That feels like an entire lifetime ago

yrgulation 4y ago

“Again, a bold move that doesn’t quite walk the line of honesty.” In a world of googles facebooks and amazons calling this guy dishonest is…dishonest in itself. As others have said he could have simply created a new mirc or just abandon it. Instead he was _honest_ about it. Instead of making all sorts of dodgy deals that sell our data he states his intentions and his reasons. I applaud this move even if i am affected by it.

horsawlarway 4y ago
He took money in exchange for a lifetime license, and is now revoking those licenses. I don't see how you can ever call that "honest" unless we have fundamentally different ideas about what honesty is. It can be honest to say: I made a term I can't support - I am going out of business as a result. It can be honest to say: I made a term that is no longer worth my time - I am going to stop working on this as a result. It's sure as fuck not honest to say: I want the marketing from the current name and user base, but I made a bad deal so I'm going to break my terms because I want more money. It feels like he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. Frankly - I'd much rather he own by just going out of business or by end-of-lifing the product and launching a new one.

jd24 4y ago

Seems like a scumbag thing to be honest. You can't entice people to pay for a "lifetime" license and just take it away. Now people who expected to have lifetime access to the software need to periodically beg him through email?

cwkoss 4y ago

Everyone who paid for licenses should form a class action lawsuit to sue for refunds as the lifetime license is no longer being honored. Then they should settle for putting the software into the public domain in lieu of repayment.

Krisjohn 4y ago

The new Manycam owners also trashed lifetime licences. They immediately released version 8 and refused to provide perpetual keys for the new version to customers that had bought lifetime licences. They also refused to offer any refunds.

jackvalentine 4y ago

Wow yep, my licence purchased in 2010 (after a decade of unlicensed use I thought now I have some money better throw it their way!) has expired. Emailed asking how to fix the "error". A fair way to do this would have been: when activating an old licence have a dialogue that explains the situation and asks if you mind contributing again, or links to a page where you can automatically renew your licence for free but again explains the situation and asks for a contribution - or email all the licence holders explaining the situation and asking if they mind chipping in. If any of these had happened I'd have gladly proffered another $20. Unilaterally killing it off isn't any way okay. I'm not going to give another cent to this prick.

MikusR 4y ago

Total Commander is 29 years old, still supported and updated. Still covered by the original licence.

tengwar2 4y ago

This is very mild. Cases that have affected me: 1) Augmentra made a mobile phone app called Viewranger which is useful for walking. It presents topological maps, and uses GPX files to plan a route or record a trail. I bought the 1:50000 maps for the whole of the UK for about £200, plus various other maps over the years. All of these were lifetime licences. Augmentra decided that they wanted to be rent-seekers, and brought out some similar software with a periodic licence fee. No problem there. But they also pushed out an "upgrade" to Viewranger which disabled it completely on a certain date. That's theft, to my mind. 2) TiVo in the UK used to sell one PVR. You could pay a subscription for the TV schedule which you needed to make it work effectively, or you could buy a lifetime subscription. A few years later they wanted to bring out a new model, and they shut down the data feed for the old model. 3) Garmin satnavs can be bought with lifetime map updates for particular areas. The problem is that with older models they used a proprietary protocol to get the data in and out - and that stopped working. Look it up on the web site and they claim that the problem is the increasing size of the map data, and that the older models don't have the space. No, there's plenty of space, you're just not honouring the deal. And we're talking about an expensive weather-sealed motorcycle model here, not bargain basement.

sombragris 4y ago

IAAL, although I'm licensed to practice in my country (Paraguay, South America) which has a legal system quite different from the Anglo-Saxon sphere. So take this with a ton of salt. This is not legal advice and the whole shebang... Articles 671 and 672 of our Civil Code say basically that if there is a manifest disproportion between duties of each party due to one party's need, recklessness or inexperience, or if over the course of time the burden of one of the parties becomes too onerous, the contract might be resolved or "equitably modified". This move would fall under one of these cases and the guy could offer newer, more equitable terms. Anyway, even when I was a heavy IRC user I used mIRC sparingly. Today, I would use Konversation or Hexchat for GUI clients, and weechat or epic5 on console.

nirvgorilla 4y ago

mIRC.v7.72.Incl.Keygen.and.Patch-RLTS Oh it looks like it's free. https://files.catbox.moe/01i8mm.zip https://files.catbox.moe/01i8mm.zip Never pay for software. They always do this crap to you.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

brainchild-adam 4y ago

Technically, it's a breach of the license agreement Khaled entered into with his customers. It seems he realized that the lifetime license did not work out for him as intended, and he started looking for a way out. Possibly there are more users on those lifetime licenses than those on newer licenses, or maybe just enough to, in his mind, warrant this step. He obviously does not want to abandon the project. He might have no other way of communicating with some/enough/many/all of his lifetime users, so he chooses to use the one thing he has---the (re-)registration process. Or maybe this is the way, in his mind, to get their attention. Maybe because of GDPR. He seems to reason that after all this time, asking for another contribution is only fair (even though it goes against the original license). He does offer lifetime users the option to email him and get around the need to pay again. I can understand both sides, actually. While in principle I disagree strongly with one-sided changes to agreements such as this, at the end of the day we are all only human, and we have to somehow find a way to make life work for us. It has to be sustainable and worthwhile. I see Khaled trying his best, even though I would probably have recommended a different course of action. This is not Big Corp effing us over. (Which, sadly, happens a lot, and has much more serious consequences.) This is a single developer with, I believe, no ill intentions, possibly making an understandable but questionable move. The author of the article seems to look more at the principle of the question that this specific case illustrates. I agree with the principle. We need to be able to trust agreements we entered into.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

Netlimiter just did something similar, but you can keep version 4 with the original license. That software was essentially done, I have no idea why they "waste" money on it. They could keep it as is and just sell licenses with no support