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> it's most likely that the charging infra is part of the package fleet operators buy That inherently means short haul trucking which parent says is feasible.

> it's most likely that the charging infra is part of the package fleet operators buy That inherently means short haul trucking which parent says is feasible. With long haul trucking, I’m almost never at a location owned by the fleet operator. Pepsi and Anheuser Busch may have long haul routes that are exceptions, but you can see from the other trucks they are buying they are doing a lot of short haul trucking. They’ve both also bought BYD trucks for the same locations that have a range of 125 miles, so they don’t need the 500 mile range for their activities.

nine_k 4y ago
Short-haul EV trucking in an area eventually leads to building enough charging stations that longer-haul becomes feasible on some routes, because charging infrastructure is several areas overlaps, or almost overlaps. This fuels (heh) further expansion.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Who has the financial incentive to build charging stations? Both out and back and point to point operators will build charging infrastructure at their own hubs/terminals and use them for themselves. You might see truck stops adding "public" chargers after that EV trucks become commonplace (in the same way that truck stops have fuel discount programs for member fleets) but how will EV trucks going to become commonplace if private operators using their own infrastructure are 99.99% of users? Truck stops are thin margin. I don't see them making the investment without a need. Maybe if a big player (e.g. Swift, Walmart, etc) wants to convert to EV and kicks in a bunch of money to have their fuel partner make the capital investment. But I don't think that's going to happen until EVs are so good that it's a "profitably without nearly any doubt" type investment. You'll probably need to see a decade or two of short haul EV trucks and the accompanying refinement before that happens.
  - oxplot 4y ago
    > Who has the financial incentive to build charging stations? Both out and back and point to point operators will build charging infrastructure at their own hubs/terminals and use them for themselves. Don't forget that Tesla will probably end up building the most number of chargers over time. Charging is its own business with its own margins (e.g. Supercharger network). In other words, it's a source of net income for Tesla so as they build more trucks, they'll build more chargers as they've done to date with passenger cars and Superchargers.
    - supportlocal4h 4y ago
      It's interesting that Tesla hasn't made a splashy entrance into generation.
      - infecto 4y ago
        I think in most states within the US, generation is a hard problem to solve because of state regulation. There are some outliers (Texas) but in general its hard to just start your own power plant thats connected to the grid.
        supportlocal4h 4y ago
        Yep. Kinda like manufacturing cars is highly regulated. Or selling them without local dealerships. Or manufacturing industrial warehouse-sized batteries. Or building and operating an international network of charging stations.
        oxplot 4y ago
        > There are some outliers (Texas) but in general its hard to just start your own power plant thats connected to the grid. What if it's not and solely powered by solar (just wondering - Megachargers most likely need help from the grid).
      - nine_k 4y ago
        They have a well-known solar roof program, which is generation, but home-scale. Maybe a huge charging station which has to have large buffer batteries anyway would benefit from a large solar-panel field nearby / above it, if land price is acceptable. That would be a natural extension of the solar roof business.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Charging stations are cheap compared to diesel pumps, it’s not a huge logistical challenge, just some hardware, space, and an electrician to turn things on. Chargers at truck stops can only be good for their margins, who would have to cater to people waiting for their trucks to charge on things they actually make money in (hint: it’s not diesel or electrons).
VBprogrammer 4y ago
In the UK I imagine electric trucks will first be involved in deliveries between regional distribution centers on routes with known logistics. I'm not convinced we'll see electric trucks take over the world in the medium term but I'm sure they'll be visible on our roads in the next 10 years, if only in limited roles.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  In the UK, and most of Europe for that matter, you're also not dealing with 2000 mile runs like the US.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    Sure but even within the UK there are people who "tramp" in trucks. They set off on Monday morning and don't return home until Friday night taking mixed loads between premises and sleeping in lay-bys and industrial estates each night without so much as access to a toilet. They don't do 2000 mile runs but they still cover 2000 miles in a week. It's hard to imagine acceptable infrastructure being added to make this work.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      > It's hard to imagine acceptable infrastructure being added to make this work. This is such a typical 1st nation problem, While China battles droughts and build world's largest high-speed train network in 10 years. Apparently maintaining toilets for truckers is beyond our capabilities.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    Eastern Europe companies operate for months with the drivers living in the trucks. It’s brutal how money is made there. German highways are full of these trucks. 2 guys in a truck do 1000 miles every day except Sundays when the trucks can’t move on highways.
- Certhas 4y ago
  In 10 years we will be deep into the decarbonization of transportation. Maybe that doesn't mean electric. But if you can get 500miles today at reasonable efficiency then this is one of the really really easy things to decarbonize early. All you need are truck stops with good charging every couple of hundred miles. There are other sectors that are infinitely harder and almost certainly won't work with electric barring unforeseen breakthroughs (e.g. aviation).
kortilla 4y ago
> That inherently means short haul trucking which parent says is feasible. The parent put a weird disqualification on it that it will only work if demanded by the state. That’s a weasel word word of saying that it will be terrible and nobody will use it unless forced.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I don't spend huge amounts of capital for no reason, so why would a low-margin trucking company? That said, if the price of diesel keeps up, there is a chance that Tesla trucks plus all the charging infrastructure will be worth it economically for short haul fleets. I'm honestly surprised they didn't try to launch a truck in Europe first, it seems like a better market.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > I don't spend huge amounts of capital for no reason, so why would a low-margin trucking company? Setting aside the cost of diesel for a moment, trucking companies didn't build the entire gasoline infrastructure, either.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      They will have to build some electric infrastructure, the way most EV owners do. The best time to charge a short-haul truck is while it is waiting to be loaded or while it is parked overnight, and both of those will need the operator to own chargers.
      - w0m 4y ago
        Operator owning charger also means markedly cheaper rates. .36c vs .08c per kwh as a crappy anecdotal reference near me. in the north east. The $$ savings may make installing the infrastructure in loading/storage bays worthwhile.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Whats we have today has been built over 100 years. How fast will that convert to ev Charging is an open question.
aperson_hello 4y ago
I suspect that they don't need the 500 mile range for all their activities. Local deliveries probably don't need it, but mid-range routes may!

nine_k 4y ago

Short-haul EV trucking in an area eventually leads to building enough charging stations that longer-haul becomes feasible on some routes, because charging infrastructure is several areas overlaps, or almost overlaps. This fuels (heh) further expansion.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Who has the financial incentive to build charging stations? Both out and back and point to point operators will build charging infrastructure at their own hubs/terminals and use them for themselves. You might see truck stops adding "public" chargers after that EV trucks become commonplace (in the same way that truck stops have fuel discount programs for member fleets) but how will EV trucks going to become commonplace if private operators using their own infrastructure are 99.99% of users? Truck stops are thin margin. I don't see them making the investment without a need. Maybe if a big player (e.g. Swift, Walmart, etc) wants to convert to EV and kicks in a bunch of money to have their fuel partner make the capital investment. But I don't think that's going to happen until EVs are so good that it's a "profitably without nearly any doubt" type investment. You'll probably need to see a decade or two of short haul EV trucks and the accompanying refinement before that happens.
- oxplot 4y ago
  > Who has the financial incentive to build charging stations? Both out and back and point to point operators will build charging infrastructure at their own hubs/terminals and use them for themselves. Don't forget that Tesla will probably end up building the most number of chargers over time. Charging is its own business with its own margins (e.g. Supercharger network). In other words, it's a source of net income for Tesla so as they build more trucks, they'll build more chargers as they've done to date with passenger cars and Superchargers.
  - supportlocal4h 4y ago
    It's interesting that Tesla hasn't made a splashy entrance into generation.
    - infecto 4y ago
      I think in most states within the US, generation is a hard problem to solve because of state regulation. There are some outliers (Texas) but in general its hard to just start your own power plant thats connected to the grid.
      - supportlocal4h 4y ago
        Yep. Kinda like manufacturing cars is highly regulated. Or selling them without local dealerships. Or manufacturing industrial warehouse-sized batteries. Or building and operating an international network of charging stations.
      - oxplot 4y ago
        > There are some outliers (Texas) but in general its hard to just start your own power plant thats connected to the grid. What if it's not and solely powered by solar (just wondering - Megachargers most likely need help from the grid).
    - nine_k 4y ago
      They have a well-known solar roof program, which is generation, but home-scale. Maybe a huge charging station which has to have large buffer batteries anyway would benefit from a large solar-panel field nearby / above it, if land price is acceptable. That would be a natural extension of the solar roof business.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Charging stations are cheap compared to diesel pumps, it’s not a huge logistical challenge, just some hardware, space, and an electrician to turn things on. Chargers at truck stops can only be good for their margins, who would have to cater to people waiting for their trucks to charge on things they actually make money in (hint: it’s not diesel or electrons).

VBprogrammer 4y ago

In the UK I imagine electric trucks will first be involved in deliveries between regional distribution centers on routes with known logistics. I'm not convinced we'll see electric trucks take over the world in the medium term but I'm sure they'll be visible on our roads in the next 10 years, if only in limited roles.

rippercushions 4y ago
In the UK, and most of Europe for that matter, you're also not dealing with 2000 mile runs like the US.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  Sure but even within the UK there are people who "tramp" in trucks. They set off on Monday morning and don't return home until Friday night taking mixed loads between premises and sleeping in lay-bys and industrial estates each night without so much as access to a toilet. They don't do 2000 mile runs but they still cover 2000 miles in a week. It's hard to imagine acceptable infrastructure being added to make this work.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > It's hard to imagine acceptable infrastructure being added to make this work. This is such a typical 1st nation problem, While China battles droughts and build world's largest high-speed train network in 10 years. Apparently maintaining toilets for truckers is beyond our capabilities.
- lnsru 4y ago
  Eastern Europe companies operate for months with the drivers living in the trucks. It’s brutal how money is made there. German highways are full of these trucks. 2 guys in a truck do 1000 miles every day except Sundays when the trucks can’t move on highways.
Certhas 4y ago
In 10 years we will be deep into the decarbonization of transportation. Maybe that doesn't mean electric. But if you can get 500miles today at reasonable efficiency then this is one of the really really easy things to decarbonize early. All you need are truck stops with good charging every couple of hundred miles. There are other sectors that are infinitely harder and almost certainly won't work with electric barring unforeseen breakthroughs (e.g. aviation).

kortilla 4y ago

> That inherently means short haul trucking which parent says is feasible. The parent put a weird disqualification on it that it will only work if demanded by the state. That’s a weasel word word of saying that it will be terrible and nobody will use it unless forced.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
I don't spend huge amounts of capital for no reason, so why would a low-margin trucking company? That said, if the price of diesel keeps up, there is a chance that Tesla trucks plus all the charging infrastructure will be worth it economically for short haul fleets. I'm honestly surprised they didn't try to launch a truck in Europe first, it seems like a better market.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > I don't spend huge amounts of capital for no reason, so why would a low-margin trucking company? Setting aside the cost of diesel for a moment, trucking companies didn't build the entire gasoline infrastructure, either.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    They will have to build some electric infrastructure, the way most EV owners do. The best time to charge a short-haul truck is while it is waiting to be loaded or while it is parked overnight, and both of those will need the operator to own chargers.
    - w0m 4y ago
      Operator owning charger also means markedly cheaper rates. .36c vs .08c per kwh as a crappy anecdotal reference near me. in the north east. The $$ savings may make installing the infrastructure in loading/storage bays worthwhile.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Whats we have today has been built over 100 years. How fast will that convert to ev Charging is an open question.

aperson_hello 4y ago

I suspect that they don't need the 500 mile range for all their activities. Local deliveries probably don't need it, but mid-range routes may!