4 ms·

It's a reasonable point, but I think both points of view are valid and I offer no answers. The first is the reason the dancers are there is classic "for the da

by harry8 4y ago

It's a reasonable point, but I think both points of view are valid and I offer no answers. The first is the reason the dancers are there is classic "for the dads" tv to check out the bodies of some young, fit, conventionally physically attractive women. The men being involved in the dancing is a fig-leaf to enable the pretence that its motivation is some higher, more noble artistic endeavour for both performers and audience. If there is some small amount of "for the moms" going on as well then fine but that's not why its there. The second is that this is dance. By its nature dance is sexual "vertical expression of the horizontal desire" and all that. There is nothing inherently exploitative about having a choreographed, mixed group of young fit humans, dressed for dance on tv dancing. Dancers self-select for physical fitness. Conventionally physically less-attractive dancers don't fare much better than conventionally physically less-attractive movie-actors. Pick your fight with what humans like but don't cry exploitation. So would these dancers be on tv without a background "for the dads" mindset from tv producers? If not, does that matter? (For me, those last two are "no" and, "yeah, maybe it does." At least to the extent its worth point out but not necessarily raging against). YMMV.

smackeyacky 4y ago
A lot of that era of dancing involved men it's true, but largely as props for holding the women in provocative poses. You might argue that is some extension of classical ballet (or of the natural strength advantages that men have) but it makes no difference to the titillation factor of TV dance segments of the era.
- harry8 4y ago
  I'd actually make much the same argument about classical ballet as it developed only with different technology, (stage, theatre) and a different, more segregated and selected audience, some of whom counted more than the rest combined. Tremendously fit women showing off their shape and astounding levels of flexibility has always been a large part of that appeal and I believe knowingly so. I say that without trying to denigrate an art-form I don't understand and appreciate (or even like) on a refined level. The man who hasn't seen a ballet dancer of either sex they found attractive doing remarkable things with their body and let their imagination go at least a little probably has some pretty profound health issues and my sympathies. Something similar may well be true for women in the audience, not sure if this is really the place to ask for people to speak up on the point. tl;dr sex sells and always has.
eesmith 4y ago
> By its nature dance is sexual "vertical expression of the horizontal desire" and all that. A 4 year old dancing to music is NOT AT ALL an "expression of the horizontal desire". For the same reason, adults can and do dance for the joy of it. If you view dance through the viewpoint of sexual desire, then sure, ALL forms of human interaction are a result of sexual desire. That wouldn't be wrong, abstractly speaking. But there would be no reason to single out dance. As someone who used to dance a lot, your interpretation seems bizarre and strongly at odds with my observations and experience. For perspective, I could make the BS argument that American football is popular in the US because it's a culturally-safe way for males to satisfy their suppressed homoerotic feelings. The vast majority of fans will disagree. The onus therefore is on me to present a strong and compelling case that they are wrong. Just like there is now for your views on dance.
- harry8 4y ago
  It's completely fair that saying everyone dancing is being sexual in all circumstances is nonsense. Totally. The quote is one of those chestnuts. Wilde? Shaw? And was tipping the hat to being a little hyperbolic. Have you heard it before? I'm sure there's more than a few you think are extremely well known that I haven't. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/09/11/dancing/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CDancing%2C%E2%80%9D%20he%20would%20say,manifestation%20of%20an%20horizontal%20desire.%E2%80%9D&text=Oscar%20Wilde%20called%20dance%20%E2%80%9Ca,expression%20of%20a%20horizontal%20urge.%E2%80%9D&text=When%20Winston%20Churchill%20called%20dancing,would%20come%20in%20our%20time https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/09/11/dancing/#:~:text=%E.... Taking dancing in the manner we are discussing in this thread? TV, body hugging lycra etc. Yeah, ok, maybe not always..? Mostly? I think the point being made remains. There are no children in those clips and rightly so.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    Yes, I know the quote. My point is the quote is deeply wrong, as is any argument using it as support. My view is that you think this kink you describe is far more common than I do. I want to see evidence supporting your view. We know the BBC developed programs for "man appeal", as seen in the choice of the very name "Emma Peel" in The Avengers. We can look at "Hill's Angels" in Benny Hill, or Leela of the Sevateem in Dr. Who (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_(Doctor_Who)#Conception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_(Doctor_Who)#Conception ) to see what the BCC in general viewed a "dad appeal." These Moog dancers don't fit that mode. I mean, the second dance ends with about 40 seconds just watching the cameras, which have crowded the frustrated dancers off-screen. How is that "dad appeal"? Yes, there are bare midriffs, but that's all that's needed for "dad appeal" then there are far easier and cheaper ways to do it. And the third video is in mostly in half-darkness with the women in flowing dresses, where if the goal is to "check out the bodies of some young, fit, conventionally physically attractive women" then it failed miserably. This looks like standard avant-garde/modern dance, which has it own audience. A small one, yes, but that's why these shows aren't common.

by harry8 4y ago

smackeyacky 4y ago

A lot of that era of dancing involved men it's true, but largely as props for holding the women in provocative poses. You might argue that is some extension of classical ballet (or of the natural strength advantages that men have) but it makes no difference to the titillation factor of TV dance segments of the era.

harry8 4y ago
I'd actually make much the same argument about classical ballet as it developed only with different technology, (stage, theatre) and a different, more segregated and selected audience, some of whom counted more than the rest combined. Tremendously fit women showing off their shape and astounding levels of flexibility has always been a large part of that appeal and I believe knowingly so. I say that without trying to denigrate an art-form I don't understand and appreciate (or even like) on a refined level. The man who hasn't seen a ballet dancer of either sex they found attractive doing remarkable things with their body and let their imagination go at least a little probably has some pretty profound health issues and my sympathies. Something similar may well be true for women in the audience, not sure if this is really the place to ask for people to speak up on the point. tl;dr sex sells and always has.

eesmith 4y ago

> By its nature dance is sexual "vertical expression of the horizontal desire" and all that. A 4 year old dancing to music is NOT AT ALL an "expression of the horizontal desire". For the same reason, adults can and do dance for the joy of it. If you view dance through the viewpoint of sexual desire, then sure, ALL forms of human interaction are a result of sexual desire. That wouldn't be wrong, abstractly speaking. But there would be no reason to single out dance. As someone who used to dance a lot, your interpretation seems bizarre and strongly at odds with my observations and experience. For perspective, I could make the BS argument that American football is popular in the US because it's a culturally-safe way for males to satisfy their suppressed homoerotic feelings. The vast majority of fans will disagree. The onus therefore is on me to present a strong and compelling case that they are wrong. Just like there is now for your views on dance.

harry8 4y ago
It's completely fair that saying everyone dancing is being sexual in all circumstances is nonsense. Totally. The quote is one of those chestnuts. Wilde? Shaw? And was tipping the hat to being a little hyperbolic. Have you heard it before? I'm sure there's more than a few you think are extremely well known that I haven't. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/09/11/dancing/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CDancing%2C%E2%80%9D%20he%20would%20say,manifestation%20of%20an%20horizontal%20desire.%E2%80%9D&text=Oscar%20Wilde%20called%20dance%20%E2%80%9Ca,expression%20of%20a%20horizontal%20urge.%E2%80%9D&text=When%20Winston%20Churchill%20called%20dancing,would%20come%20in%20our%20time https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/09/11/dancing/#:~:text=%E.... Taking dancing in the manner we are discussing in this thread? TV, body hugging lycra etc. Yeah, ok, maybe not always..? Mostly? I think the point being made remains. There are no children in those clips and rightly so.
- eesmith 4y ago
  Yes, I know the quote. My point is the quote is deeply wrong, as is any argument using it as support. My view is that you think this kink you describe is far more common than I do. I want to see evidence supporting your view. We know the BBC developed programs for "man appeal", as seen in the choice of the very name "Emma Peel" in The Avengers. We can look at "Hill's Angels" in Benny Hill, or Leela of the Sevateem in Dr. Who (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_(Doctor_Who)#Conception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_(Doctor_Who)#Conception ) to see what the BCC in general viewed a "dad appeal." These Moog dancers don't fit that mode. I mean, the second dance ends with about 40 seconds just watching the cameras, which have crowded the frustrated dancers off-screen. How is that "dad appeal"? Yes, there are bare midriffs, but that's all that's needed for "dad appeal" then there are far easier and cheaper ways to do it. And the third video is in mostly in half-darkness with the women in flowing dresses, where if the goal is to "check out the bodies of some young, fit, conventionally physically attractive women" then it failed miserably. This looks like standard avant-garde/modern dance, which has it own audience. A small one, yes, but that's why these shows aren't common.