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I generally find this approach quite scary. It seems we are all slowly building our version of the Great Chinese Firewall. I am aware of the fact that informat

I generally find this approach quite scary. It seems we are all slowly building our version of the Great Chinese Firewall. I am aware of the fact that information control is a central part of any power structure setup, and I assume that too many people lack the skills, the option, and even the desire to deeply and meaningfully engage with most topics, but I'd still love to be part of a society where ideas and opinions can be freely and respectfully shared and debated. I believe in the power of rational arguments, and am quite alarmed by any form of thinking-for-you as I'd prefer to think for myself. But then, this seems to be our lot as humans. Not even (the stories in) The Orville was free of power politics, as utopian as it was.

iso1631 4y ago
> and am quite alarmed by any form of thinking-for-you as I'd prefer to think for myself. This is a common refrain from people that think Bill Gates is inserting microchips into their brains and everyone else are sheeple that need to wake up. The problem is nobody can entirely think for themselves. People are manipulated by advertising and propaganda which reprograms on a subconcious basis to the point they will not be able to accept basic verifiable facts, let alone anything more complicated.
- twelve40 4y ago
  > People are manipulated by advertising and propaganda So do you propose we double-down on this, with the help of the government? I'm ok with that, since I believe there is 0 chance anyone can do anything about it. But we can at least stop being two-faced about it.
- SXX 4y ago
  Yeah there are people affected by propoganda and misinformation, but do you think government-level censorshop is good solution for this? 15 years ago in Russia repressions bagan with lagislation to "protect childern from information on internet".
- dekken_ 4y ago
  > The problem is nobody can entirely think for themselves. Good luck proving that.
- zosima 4y ago
  So you are saying that everyone is being manipulated, and your in-group's manipulation must have first priority? How about removing the log from you own eye, before attempting to remove the speck from your neighbour's eye?
- slackfan 4y ago
  "Because I cannot think for myself therefore everybody cannot think for themselves."
- brainchild-adam 4y ago
  > The problem is nobody can entirely think for themselves. People are manipulated by advertising and propaganda which reprograms on a subconcious basis to the point they will not be able to accept basic verifiable facts, let alone anything more complicated. Could you point me towards any supporting evidence or fleshed-out theories regarding your conclusion in the second sentence of my quote? I find it difficult to go from "advertising and propaganda", which clearly exist and which can be argued to have an effect, to completely losing the ability to "accept basic verifiable facts".
  - jasonjayr 4y ago
    "Flat Earthers" are an example that readily comes to mind as a group of folks who are lose or actively deny the ability to "accept basic verifiable facts".
    - brainchild-adam 4y ago
      I fail to understand how this example argues for the claim I was questioning. Am I missing something?
someweirdperson 4y ago
> Not even (the stories in) The Orville was free of power politics, as utopian as it was. I had always seen The Orville as a simple form of entertainment. I didn't notice there was some deeper meaning where it wants to teach us about some utopian future. At the very least not to a degree that makes it a prime example for that.
- vidarh 4y ago
  MacFarlane is a massive Trekkie, and has not exactly been subtle about copying early Trek's "morality play in space" model.
- brainchild-adam 4y ago
  It was simply my first, slightly tongue-in-cheek go-to, since I appreciate the show's setup so much. On that note, what would you suggest as a prime example for some utiopian future?
  - codeulike 4y ago
    what would you suggest as a prime example for some utiopian future? Good question, there aren't many these days. First thing that springs to mind is Iain M Banks "Culture" series.
    - brainchild-adam 4y ago
      Thanks! I will check them out.
      - codeulike 4y ago
        Its hard to have a plot in a utopia, so most of the books are about Contact between the Culture and other societies. Some of it is 30 years old now so perhaps my enthusiasm for the early ones is because I was 30 years younger when I read them. But still they stick in my head as a positive vision of future society. I can't think of that many other futures that have stuck with me in the same way. You can read them in any order. The earliest one (Consider Phlebas) I never much liked. Use Of Weapons was my favourite. Player Of Games was good too. If you were only going to read one, probably Excession - it is the most sweeping, epic one. Some of the later ones are good. If you just want the overarching ideas, they are explained in an essay called A Few Notes On The Culture which he posted to newsgroup rec.arts.sf.written in 1994. Copied here: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm
clnq 4y ago
We are not building the Great Chinese Firewall. That is a slippery slope-style assumption and fallacy. Many people are in support of banning propaganda websites and for good reasons. They sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt and advance foreign information warfare goals. The British people would undoubtedly be against implementing a Great Firewall or anything similar. Ideas like that would face a lot of opposition and scrutiny. Too much to succeed in any meaningful way. We still have enough discussion in media and public forums in the UK to engage deeply and meaningfully with most topics. And to share opinions freely and respectfully. You are painting Ofcom's/Foreign Secretary's move as far more sinister and impactful than it is. Although it is a move in the direction of government control, not all such actions are unwelcome by people; not everyone is so libertarian. Sometimes the government has powers that individuals don't, and that can help everyone.
- brainchild-adam 4y ago
  I agree that it's not simple, if that's part of what you are saying. Which makes it such a problem in my view. I look at the principle more than the specifics, and another entity deciding what I as an adult am allowed to interact with, that is one of the central stumbling blocks for me. I have a very strong desire for autonomy, and that includes coming to my own conclusions. What's good for society as a whole seems a lot more difficult to answer. This way or that way, I'm not sure most or even many supporters of this kind of access control think its consequences through to such an extent that they would have formed an opinion that I would consider well-founded.
  - clnq 4y ago
    You say that another entity deciding what you, as an adult, can interact with is unacceptable. But the government has many laws that prohibit interactions with many things. You cannot trespass in many places, for example, to make things easier and safer for everyone. I am not as libertarian as you, and many people are not. It's not that they don't think ideas through enough to have a well-founded opinion, as you say. They disagree with you.
    - 4y ago
kmlx 4y ago
> I am aware of the fact that information control is a central part of any power structure setup, and I assume that too many people lack the skills, the option, and even the desire to deeply and meaningfully engage with most topics, but I'd still love to be part of a society where ideas and opinions can be freely and respectfully shared and debated. the covid fiasco happened a few years ago. people were fired and some were imprisoned for not towing the line. there were mayors of towns harassing their voters on the streets. the general population was by and large very supportive of the politicians who were imposing restrictions :) the age of “free and respectful opinions” is gone. see the USA for an extreme example.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Not even (the stories in) The Orville was free of power politics, as utopian as it was. The Orville is basically a less utopian version of Star Trek: The Next Generation. (Or, perhaps, “Roddenberry-era Star Trek” more generally.)

iso1631 4y ago

> and am quite alarmed by any form of thinking-for-you as I'd prefer to think for myself. This is a common refrain from people that think Bill Gates is inserting microchips into their brains and everyone else are sheeple that need to wake up. The problem is nobody can entirely think for themselves. People are manipulated by advertising and propaganda which reprograms on a subconcious basis to the point they will not be able to accept basic verifiable facts, let alone anything more complicated.

twelve40 4y ago
> People are manipulated by advertising and propaganda So do you propose we double-down on this, with the help of the government? I'm ok with that, since I believe there is 0 chance anyone can do anything about it. But we can at least stop being two-faced about it.
SXX 4y ago
Yeah there are people affected by propoganda and misinformation, but do you think government-level censorshop is good solution for this? 15 years ago in Russia repressions bagan with lagislation to "protect childern from information on internet".
dekken_ 4y ago
> The problem is nobody can entirely think for themselves. Good luck proving that.
zosima 4y ago
So you are saying that everyone is being manipulated, and your in-group's manipulation must have first priority? How about removing the log from you own eye, before attempting to remove the speck from your neighbour's eye?
slackfan 4y ago
"Because I cannot think for myself therefore everybody cannot think for themselves."
brainchild-adam 4y ago
> The problem is nobody can entirely think for themselves. People are manipulated by advertising and propaganda which reprograms on a subconcious basis to the point they will not be able to accept basic verifiable facts, let alone anything more complicated. Could you point me towards any supporting evidence or fleshed-out theories regarding your conclusion in the second sentence of my quote? I find it difficult to go from "advertising and propaganda", which clearly exist and which can be argued to have an effect, to completely losing the ability to "accept basic verifiable facts".
- jasonjayr 4y ago
  "Flat Earthers" are an example that readily comes to mind as a group of folks who are lose or actively deny the ability to "accept basic verifiable facts".
  - brainchild-adam 4y ago
    I fail to understand how this example argues for the claim I was questioning. Am I missing something?

someweirdperson 4y ago

> Not even (the stories in) The Orville was free of power politics, as utopian as it was. I had always seen The Orville as a simple form of entertainment. I didn't notice there was some deeper meaning where it wants to teach us about some utopian future. At the very least not to a degree that makes it a prime example for that.

vidarh 4y ago
MacFarlane is a massive Trekkie, and has not exactly been subtle about copying early Trek's "morality play in space" model.
brainchild-adam 4y ago
It was simply my first, slightly tongue-in-cheek go-to, since I appreciate the show's setup so much. On that note, what would you suggest as a prime example for some utiopian future?
- codeulike 4y ago
  what would you suggest as a prime example for some utiopian future? Good question, there aren't many these days. First thing that springs to mind is Iain M Banks "Culture" series.
  - brainchild-adam 4y ago
    Thanks! I will check them out.
    - codeulike 4y ago
      Its hard to have a plot in a utopia, so most of the books are about Contact between the Culture and other societies. Some of it is 30 years old now so perhaps my enthusiasm for the early ones is because I was 30 years younger when I read them. But still they stick in my head as a positive vision of future society. I can't think of that many other futures that have stuck with me in the same way. You can read them in any order. The earliest one (Consider Phlebas) I never much liked. Use Of Weapons was my favourite. Player Of Games was good too. If you were only going to read one, probably Excession - it is the most sweeping, epic one. Some of the later ones are good. If you just want the overarching ideas, they are explained in an essay called A Few Notes On The Culture which he posted to newsgroup rec.arts.sf.written in 1994. Copied here: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm

clnq 4y ago

We are not building the Great Chinese Firewall. That is a slippery slope-style assumption and fallacy. Many people are in support of banning propaganda websites and for good reasons. They sow fear, uncertainty, and doubt and advance foreign information warfare goals. The British people would undoubtedly be against implementing a Great Firewall or anything similar. Ideas like that would face a lot of opposition and scrutiny. Too much to succeed in any meaningful way. We still have enough discussion in media and public forums in the UK to engage deeply and meaningfully with most topics. And to share opinions freely and respectfully. You are painting Ofcom's/Foreign Secretary's move as far more sinister and impactful than it is. Although it is a move in the direction of government control, not all such actions are unwelcome by people; not everyone is so libertarian. Sometimes the government has powers that individuals don't, and that can help everyone.

brainchild-adam 4y ago
I agree that it's not simple, if that's part of what you are saying. Which makes it such a problem in my view. I look at the principle more than the specifics, and another entity deciding what I as an adult am allowed to interact with, that is one of the central stumbling blocks for me. I have a very strong desire for autonomy, and that includes coming to my own conclusions. What's good for society as a whole seems a lot more difficult to answer. This way or that way, I'm not sure most or even many supporters of this kind of access control think its consequences through to such an extent that they would have formed an opinion that I would consider well-founded.
- clnq 4y ago
  You say that another entity deciding what you, as an adult, can interact with is unacceptable. But the government has many laws that prohibit interactions with many things. You cannot trespass in many places, for example, to make things easier and safer for everyone. I am not as libertarian as you, and many people are not. It's not that they don't think ideas through enough to have a well-founded opinion, as you say. They disagree with you.
  - 4y ago

kmlx 4y ago

> I am aware of the fact that information control is a central part of any power structure setup, and I assume that too many people lack the skills, the option, and even the desire to deeply and meaningfully engage with most topics, but I'd still love to be part of a society where ideas and opinions can be freely and respectfully shared and debated. the covid fiasco happened a few years ago. people were fired and some were imprisoned for not towing the line. there were mayors of towns harassing their voters on the streets. the general population was by and large very supportive of the politicians who were imposing restrictions :) the age of “free and respectful opinions” is gone. see the USA for an extreme example.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Not even (the stories in) The Orville was free of power politics, as utopian as it was. The Orville is basically a less utopian version of Star Trek: The Next Generation. (Or, perhaps, “Roddenberry-era Star Trek” more generally.)