4 ms·

How did it work if you show up at the park and the whole campsite is full? As parks get busier, it seems like permits are pretty much the only fair and realist

by ahepp 4y ago

How did it work if you show up at the park and the whole campsite is full? As parks get busier, it seems like permits are pretty much the only fair and realistic path forward. I loved being able to drive off and show up, but it’s also nice to be able to plan with confidence that I will have a spot. I think there are solutions to the fully booked / empty sites problem. Charge a substantial fee if you no show. Give away infilled sites using your preferred method, after 5 pm. Etc.

StillBored 4y ago
I'm fairly certain that the reservations system results in the parks being more overrun. There are other variables as well, but being able to be assured that your going to get your camp site before you arrive has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. The fact that you might arrive and not get that perfect spot serves to discourage some number of people. And many of them aren't prepared to find alternatives, or sleep in the dirt lot next to the ranger station. Which is the kind of thing that used to happen on those popular weekends at the popular sites. It frankly was never a problem for most people because they had already acknowledged to themselves that they might not get a spot, and had a backup plan. So for the first ~30 years or so of my life camping, I never made a reservation. Simply showed up and took what was available. Usually early if I thought it was going to be busy. I can't ever remember not getting a spot, even as recently as ~6-7 years ago when I took the kids to yellowstone (with a plan for camping down the road if I couldn't get a spot in the park directly). And you know what, outside of the first day when we actually went to the alternate campground because it was late when we arrived, I didn't have a problem showing up the next day at the reservations desk and getting spots for the next 4 nights. And this was still in the summer when school was out.
- Godel_unicode 4y ago
  > has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. This is good. > serves to discourage some number of people. The is bad. Sounds like the system is working well.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  This doesn’t make much sense to me. If a fully reserved campground is too full, then they just need to reduce the number of sites.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  The volume climbed first and then reservation systems were adopted. National parks expend considerable effort to track visits (it’s like their KPI) and it has been climbing for years, reaching unmanageable levels at many parks earlier in this century. Zion closed the canyon to cars in 2000, Acadia before that. The rangers were telling me it was probably only a few years away for the main road in Glacier. It is still possible to drive up for camping at parks though. People cancel reservations all the time, creating “hidden” capacity that can only be accessed if you are there that day. But yeah, you better have a backup plan. Quite a few national parks have national forest campgrounds nearby, which are less busy, less developed, and often do not even take reservations.
  - StillBored 4y ago
    There isn't any doubt that visitation rates have been up. I'm sure instituting formal reservation systems "helped" at the places that actually needed them, but this is a case that you can no longer get reservations at the parks which are also the least visited in the year following the reservation system being implemented, which seems suspect. So, maybe its just social media/etc driving the problem, but it could also be that people can search the entire inventory and are like "hey I can't get a reservation at X, but we could go to Y instead since they have a site free" Vs actually having to pick up the phone and call a half dozen reservation desks adding friction to the system.
    - ahepp 4y ago
      I guess my objection to characterizing this as a problem, is that it's the public's land held in trust for them. It would destroy the integrity of the system to not make it as discoverable and accessible as possible, within the bounds of maintaining the natural character of the land. I have some sympathy for people who knew places off-the-beaten-path that now have more competition for a spot, but if the land really is public land, I don't see how it's ethical to keep it hard to find and hard to use. Fundamentally, doesn't a trustee have a duty to beneficiaries? If you want a spot that's less accessible to others (and thus less crowded), there are still a lot of options. Finding such a spot might involve hiking a bit farther, visiting during the week, or dealing with harsher weather. But I really do think fairness, and thus the long term future of the system depend on the government doing its best to make it easy to find and access these places.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  It sounds like you are lamenting more people being able to access our national treasures? They belong to all of us you know.

by ahepp 4y ago

StillBored 4y ago

I'm fairly certain that the reservations system results in the parks being more overrun. There are other variables as well, but being able to be assured that your going to get your camp site before you arrive has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. The fact that you might arrive and not get that perfect spot serves to discourage some number of people. And many of them aren't prepared to find alternatives, or sleep in the dirt lot next to the ranger station. Which is the kind of thing that used to happen on those popular weekends at the popular sites. It frankly was never a problem for most people because they had already acknowledged to themselves that they might not get a spot, and had a backup plan. So for the first ~30 years or so of my life camping, I never made a reservation. Simply showed up and took what was available. Usually early if I thought it was going to be busy. I can't ever remember not getting a spot, even as recently as ~6-7 years ago when I took the kids to yellowstone (with a plan for camping down the road if I couldn't get a spot in the park directly). And you know what, outside of the first day when we actually went to the alternate campground because it was late when we arrived, I didn't have a problem showing up the next day at the reservations desk and getting spots for the next 4 nights. And this was still in the summer when school was out.

Godel_unicode 4y ago
> has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. This is good. > serves to discourage some number of people. The is bad. Sounds like the system is working well.
tshaddox 4y ago
This doesn’t make much sense to me. If a fully reserved campground is too full, then they just need to reduce the number of sites.
snowwrestler 4y ago
The volume climbed first and then reservation systems were adopted. National parks expend considerable effort to track visits (it’s like their KPI) and it has been climbing for years, reaching unmanageable levels at many parks earlier in this century. Zion closed the canyon to cars in 2000, Acadia before that. The rangers were telling me it was probably only a few years away for the main road in Glacier. It is still possible to drive up for camping at parks though. People cancel reservations all the time, creating “hidden” capacity that can only be accessed if you are there that day. But yeah, you better have a backup plan. Quite a few national parks have national forest campgrounds nearby, which are less busy, less developed, and often do not even take reservations.
- StillBored 4y ago
  There isn't any doubt that visitation rates have been up. I'm sure instituting formal reservation systems "helped" at the places that actually needed them, but this is a case that you can no longer get reservations at the parks which are also the least visited in the year following the reservation system being implemented, which seems suspect. So, maybe its just social media/etc driving the problem, but it could also be that people can search the entire inventory and are like "hey I can't get a reservation at X, but we could go to Y instead since they have a site free" Vs actually having to pick up the phone and call a half dozen reservation desks adding friction to the system.
  - ahepp 4y ago
    I guess my objection to characterizing this as a problem, is that it's the public's land held in trust for them. It would destroy the integrity of the system to not make it as discoverable and accessible as possible, within the bounds of maintaining the natural character of the land. I have some sympathy for people who knew places off-the-beaten-path that now have more competition for a spot, but if the land really is public land, I don't see how it's ethical to keep it hard to find and hard to use. Fundamentally, doesn't a trustee have a duty to beneficiaries? If you want a spot that's less accessible to others (and thus less crowded), there are still a lot of options. Finding such a spot might involve hiking a bit farther, visiting during the week, or dealing with harsher weather. But I really do think fairness, and thus the long term future of the system depend on the government doing its best to make it easy to find and access these places.
HDThoreaun 4y ago
It sounds like you are lamenting more people being able to access our national treasures? They belong to all of us you know.