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I think this is a serious issue but underestimated. People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants which I d

I think this is a serious issue but underestimated. People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants which I don't think is sustainable or even a healthy view of education. I am basing this on the huge foreign population of our top schools and the push for H1-B visas. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy if people remove themselves from the running for STEM in earlier childhood. This survey showed a growing number of people who want to be social media stars[1] as fewer want to pursue STEM. I can't picture a healthy society that makes this decision. You can't shun important roles of society collectively and then hope everything works out. [1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-astronauts-survey-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-a...

htag 4y ago
The linked study is for children aged 8-12. How does a 12 year old "remove themselves from the running for STEM"? A six grader taking average math/science classes and getting average grades is on track for qualifying for a science/engineering/math undergraduate program. There's even opportunities later in life for those struggling in school to join STEM. When I was 12 all my friends wanted to be rock stars or professional skateboarders. I seriously doubt the causation between what children want to be in the age group of 8-12 and what they grow up to become.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  I agree that this feels a bit like a moral panic and wanting to be a YouTuber doesn't seem that different from wanting to be an actor, singer, or pro sports player, all dreams many more children have nursed in the past than have pursued in adulthood.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  People often try to get into top tier high schools to help them in their STEM careers starting at ages 8-12. At elite universities, most students have already seen calculus by the time they get there. A student doing average at age 12 probably won't see calculus by then. I think in reality, preparation for STEM takes years. It helps to have an education that fosters interest at a young age as well. I am specifically questioning the priorities of the US's view of education. As I said, we rely heavily on H1-B and have very large foreign populations in STEM degrees. Social media may not be the cause. What matters is that there clearly isn't early interest. Early interest translates to having more graduates. As I posted elsewhere, there is a clear difference in what degrees foreign students pursue in the US (more STEM) versus what US students pursue. This seems like a difference in values that I think we should examine.
  - htag 4y ago
    Sure, children going to the most competitive universities will probably have began prep work before the age of 8. I would guess that "Did my parents go to an elite university?" has far more predicting power for who will enter an elite university than "What was my dream job at age 10." Elite schools are designed to be attended by only a small fraction of the population, hence the term elite. For the rest of the population, going to a state university, community college, or even a technology trade school can lead to meaningful employment.
    - onetimeusename 4y ago
      I don't think you can move the extremes without moving the mean. We are already seeing the effects. First and second generation immigrants from foreign countries (like China) outperform Americans. This cycle could become self fulfilling. People expect immigrants to achieve at the extremes and prioritize other things in their lives. As you said, let's suppose having parents who go to these schools predict who will enter. At this point, recent immigrant families would outperform and others under perform and this can continue as cultural values are passed on. Is this is a sustainable situation? No, I think it bifurcates it and creates permanent classes. On the other hand, more focus on STEM education broadly would translate to higher enrollments and self reliance. This also assumes that out performing immigrant families assimilate. Non-assimilation would exacerbate the bifurcation.
wildrhythms 4y ago
>People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants Huh? Anecdotally, I have never heard this sentiment before.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  People who hold this view are mostly employers as far as I'm aware, unless we're conflating having a generally sympathetic view to skilled immigrants with not wanting Americans to learn engineering.
- bena 4y ago
  Because he is basing this claim off of his interpretation of his perception.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  Ya I wrote the reasoning following that. Look at these statistics[1]. It shows the ever growing number of foreign people earning both undergraduate and graduate STEM degrees in the US. foreign students accounted for 54% of master’s degrees and 44% of doctorate degrees issued in STEM fields in the United States in SY2016-2017. We rely on tens of thousands of H1-B visas per year to fill STEM roles which has been debated for years. We have accepted we have to import people to sustain our economy. I am questioning the merits and sustainability of these views and whether Americans have a unhealthy view of education. We certainly hold these visa holders to higher standards than ourselves. Why? [1]: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    Top graduate programs in STEM fields recruit internationally, because they're looking for the absolute best students, and Americans are only a small percentage of the world population. The US is extremely lucky to have a large percentage of the top research universities in the world, so every year, it Hoovers a fairly large fraction of the best students worldwide, who naturally want to go to the best programs and work with the best scientists. This is a positive feedback loop. The US has the best research universities, so it gets the best students. The best students come to the US, where they do research and maybe stay on as professors, so the US has the best research. If the US were to consciously try to "Americanize" its STEM programs, that would fundamentally undermine the very thing that makes research in the US so strong - its ability to constantly draw in the top talent worldwide.
bcrosby95 4y ago
Those graphs are weird as fuck. Look at the actual percentages in China vs the other places: 37% want to be a professional athlete, which is more than youtuber in the UK/US.
nradov 4y ago
It's not so much people in the US who believe that top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants, but rather employers who want cheap labor and can control the immigration laws indirectly via lobbying and campaign contributions. US work visa laws give preference to foreign students who earn advanced degrees in US universities. Those students are thus more willing to tolerate low wages and poor treatment in PhD programs because it still beats returning to their home countries. I don't blame the foreign students for this, but it's important to understand what's really driving the current situation.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Which BigTech employers are getting “cheap labor”? Cry me a river about a returning intern with no experience “only” being able to make $160K right out of college and a mid level developer “only” making in the mid $200 in a couple of years. Yes I work in BigTech and I’m one of only a very few native English speakers on my team and probably in my wider department. I never look at my coworkers and think if it weren’t for them I would be making even more than 3x to 4x the median income in the US. Even on the corp dev side, after 3 or four years and one job hop, you can make twice the median income in any major city in the US.
  - sidlls 4y ago
    " I never look at my coworkers and think if it weren’t for them I would be making even more than 3x to 4x the median income in the US." You should think that, though: their presence is helping reduce wages, including yours. The fact that labor in tech is relatively well paid compared to other fields is entirely irrelevant.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Yes because I’m such a selfish human being I’m going to bemoan the fact that my coworkers who are also able to have a good life that ability because even with my unvested RSUs that are at half their all time highs, I’m still going to make over three times the national median household income. For context: I’m not bragging, I’m not officially a software engineer by title and I only fell into BigTech three years ago at 45 by doing a slight pivot from software engineering. I’m still paid less than an equivalent mid level software dev at my own company. Not that I’m complaining I work remotely from - all over the US.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

htag 4y ago

The linked study is for children aged 8-12. How does a 12 year old "remove themselves from the running for STEM"? A six grader taking average math/science classes and getting average grades is on track for qualifying for a science/engineering/math undergraduate program. There's even opportunities later in life for those struggling in school to join STEM. When I was 12 all my friends wanted to be rock stars or professional skateboarders. I seriously doubt the causation between what children want to be in the age group of 8-12 and what they grow up to become.

emodendroket 4y ago
I agree that this feels a bit like a moral panic and wanting to be a YouTuber doesn't seem that different from wanting to be an actor, singer, or pro sports player, all dreams many more children have nursed in the past than have pursued in adulthood.
onetimeusename 4y ago
People often try to get into top tier high schools to help them in their STEM careers starting at ages 8-12. At elite universities, most students have already seen calculus by the time they get there. A student doing average at age 12 probably won't see calculus by then. I think in reality, preparation for STEM takes years. It helps to have an education that fosters interest at a young age as well. I am specifically questioning the priorities of the US's view of education. As I said, we rely heavily on H1-B and have very large foreign populations in STEM degrees. Social media may not be the cause. What matters is that there clearly isn't early interest. Early interest translates to having more graduates. As I posted elsewhere, there is a clear difference in what degrees foreign students pursue in the US (more STEM) versus what US students pursue. This seems like a difference in values that I think we should examine.
- htag 4y ago
  Sure, children going to the most competitive universities will probably have began prep work before the age of 8. I would guess that "Did my parents go to an elite university?" has far more predicting power for who will enter an elite university than "What was my dream job at age 10." Elite schools are designed to be attended by only a small fraction of the population, hence the term elite. For the rest of the population, going to a state university, community college, or even a technology trade school can lead to meaningful employment.
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    I don't think you can move the extremes without moving the mean. We are already seeing the effects. First and second generation immigrants from foreign countries (like China) outperform Americans. This cycle could become self fulfilling. People expect immigrants to achieve at the extremes and prioritize other things in their lives. As you said, let's suppose having parents who go to these schools predict who will enter. At this point, recent immigrant families would outperform and others under perform and this can continue as cultural values are passed on. Is this is a sustainable situation? No, I think it bifurcates it and creates permanent classes. On the other hand, more focus on STEM education broadly would translate to higher enrollments and self reliance. This also assumes that out performing immigrant families assimilate. Non-assimilation would exacerbate the bifurcation.

wildrhythms 4y ago

>People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants Huh? Anecdotally, I have never heard this sentiment before.

emodendroket 4y ago
People who hold this view are mostly employers as far as I'm aware, unless we're conflating having a generally sympathetic view to skilled immigrants with not wanting Americans to learn engineering.
bena 4y ago
Because he is basing this claim off of his interpretation of his perception.
onetimeusename 4y ago
Ya I wrote the reasoning following that. Look at these statistics[1]. It shows the ever growing number of foreign people earning both undergraduate and graduate STEM degrees in the US. foreign students accounted for 54% of master’s degrees and 44% of doctorate degrees issued in STEM fields in the United States in SY2016-2017. We rely on tens of thousands of H1-B visas per year to fill STEM roles which has been debated for years. We have accepted we have to import people to sustain our economy. I am questioning the merits and sustainability of these views and whether Americans have a unhealthy view of education. We certainly hold these visa holders to higher standards than ourselves. Why? [1]: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  Top graduate programs in STEM fields recruit internationally, because they're looking for the absolute best students, and Americans are only a small percentage of the world population. The US is extremely lucky to have a large percentage of the top research universities in the world, so every year, it Hoovers a fairly large fraction of the best students worldwide, who naturally want to go to the best programs and work with the best scientists. This is a positive feedback loop. The US has the best research universities, so it gets the best students. The best students come to the US, where they do research and maybe stay on as professors, so the US has the best research. If the US were to consciously try to "Americanize" its STEM programs, that would fundamentally undermine the very thing that makes research in the US so strong - its ability to constantly draw in the top talent worldwide.

bcrosby95 4y ago

Those graphs are weird as fuck. Look at the actual percentages in China vs the other places: 37% want to be a professional athlete, which is more than youtuber in the UK/US.

nradov 4y ago

It's not so much people in the US who believe that top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants, but rather employers who want cheap labor and can control the immigration laws indirectly via lobbying and campaign contributions. US work visa laws give preference to foreign students who earn advanced degrees in US universities. Those students are thus more willing to tolerate low wages and poor treatment in PhD programs because it still beats returning to their home countries. I don't blame the foreign students for this, but it's important to understand what's really driving the current situation.

scarface74 4y ago
Which BigTech employers are getting “cheap labor”? Cry me a river about a returning intern with no experience “only” being able to make $160K right out of college and a mid level developer “only” making in the mid $200 in a couple of years. Yes I work in BigTech and I’m one of only a very few native English speakers on my team and probably in my wider department. I never look at my coworkers and think if it weren’t for them I would be making even more than 3x to 4x the median income in the US. Even on the corp dev side, after 3 or four years and one job hop, you can make twice the median income in any major city in the US.
- sidlls 4y ago
  " I never look at my coworkers and think if it weren’t for them I would be making even more than 3x to 4x the median income in the US." You should think that, though: their presence is helping reduce wages, including yours. The fact that labor in tech is relatively well paid compared to other fields is entirely irrelevant.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes because I’m such a selfish human being I’m going to bemoan the fact that my coworkers who are also able to have a good life that ability because even with my unvested RSUs that are at half their all time highs, I’m still going to make over three times the national median household income. For context: I’m not bragging, I’m not officially a software engineer by title and I only fell into BigTech three years ago at 45 by doing a slight pivot from software engineering. I’m still paid less than an equivalent mid level software dev at my own company. Not that I’m complaining I work remotely from - all over the US.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]