6 ms·

It was even better when you just picked up the free permit on the way into the park. Its not like your saving any time, because that site is basically just a re

It was even better when you just picked up the free permit on the way into the park. Its not like your saving any time, because that site is basically just a reservation system, you should still (and usually have to) stop at the ranger station and get the actual permit, check-in and sign various things, and hear various lectures and assure that the area is safe/etc due to weather/etc. Plus, I'm not even sure it is helping with the reservation problem, as more than once i've found myself in a camping/etc area that is 100% booked and 50% empty.

colingoodman 4y ago
The fully booked with empty campsites thing drives me crazy; I see it quite often as well. Finding dispersed camping areas seems to be the way to go.
annoyingnoob 4y ago
The 50% empty problem is due to being required to reserve months in advance. I cannot tell you how a given date will be impacted 6 months into my future, I can plan but shit happens.
hcurtiss 4y ago
I strongly disagree. Prior to reservation systems, it was not uncommon to drive out to Glacier, say, only to find every camp site filled. Now you can be assured that you will have a site prior to taking the week off and hauling your family hours from home. Likewise, several popular western rivers became absolutely crushed with traffic. One year I floated 30 miles before I found a site (which was more than two regular days on that river). They needed a way to lottery or offer permits, and recreation.gov has performed better than what they used previously (though they're often gone within seconds of opening availability -- which converts first-come to a sort of lottery). I think the solution to the empty camp sites problem is a stiff penalty for failing to release the site to others prior the reserved date. For instance, last year on the John Day they said if you didn't put in on the designated day, you'd lose your ability to pull a John Day permit the following year.
- briffle 4y ago
  Ahh yes, the "I really want the fourth of july, but I can only book X months in advance. So I'll book a week early, and book the 27th of June through the 4th of july weekend. Then i'll wait months, and then pay the $7 fee to change my reservation, and drop the first week from my reservation." Its very sad how common this is, and makes it very difficult to find spots out west in popular areas. It really doesn't help that my state (Oregon) has almost doubled in population the last 30 years, but added almost no new camping areas since the 70's.
  - ngcc_hk 4y ago
    What can one do? Popular, increase in population, only $7 to change … efficiency of market and public facilities … obviously increase supply. But given the growth and the price, demand follows … May I suggest enjoy whatever you got and fight to increase more. Not a paradise USA but much better than other places in the world. Best wish and season greetings.
  - bscphil 4y ago
    > Ahh yes, the "I really want the fourth of july, but I can only book X months in advance. So I'll book a week early, and book the 27th of June through the 4th of july weekend. Then i'll wait months, and then pay the $7 fee to change my reservation, and drop the first week from my reservation." Seems like a reasonable solution to that would be allowing booking X days in advance where "days in advance" is measured by the last day of your reservation instead of your first. This would also advantage people who are okay with staying a shorter time, meaning that more people get to enjoy the park in total. Obviously none of this solves the problem of there not being enough opportunities for everyone, but this would make things more equitable as a stopgap measure.
- 8note 4y ago
  This still leaves an opening for scalpers who have no intention of actually going to the park, just charging people to use their reservation. A different alternative would be to make those spaces an auction, and somebody can pay more to take over your reservation. At least then the park gets the money
ahepp 4y ago
How did it work if you show up at the park and the whole campsite is full? As parks get busier, it seems like permits are pretty much the only fair and realistic path forward. I loved being able to drive off and show up, but it’s also nice to be able to plan with confidence that I will have a spot. I think there are solutions to the fully booked / empty sites problem. Charge a substantial fee if you no show. Give away infilled sites using your preferred method, after 5 pm. Etc.
- StillBored 4y ago
  I'm fairly certain that the reservations system results in the parks being more overrun. There are other variables as well, but being able to be assured that your going to get your camp site before you arrive has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. The fact that you might arrive and not get that perfect spot serves to discourage some number of people. And many of them aren't prepared to find alternatives, or sleep in the dirt lot next to the ranger station. Which is the kind of thing that used to happen on those popular weekends at the popular sites. It frankly was never a problem for most people because they had already acknowledged to themselves that they might not get a spot, and had a backup plan. So for the first ~30 years or so of my life camping, I never made a reservation. Simply showed up and took what was available. Usually early if I thought it was going to be busy. I can't ever remember not getting a spot, even as recently as ~6-7 years ago when I took the kids to yellowstone (with a plan for camping down the road if I couldn't get a spot in the park directly). And you know what, outside of the first day when we actually went to the alternate campground because it was late when we arrived, I didn't have a problem showing up the next day at the reservations desk and getting spots for the next 4 nights. And this was still in the summer when school was out.
  - Godel_unicode 4y ago
    > has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. This is good. > serves to discourage some number of people. The is bad. Sounds like the system is working well.
  - tshaddox 4y ago

colingoodman 4y ago

The fully booked with empty campsites thing drives me crazy; I see it quite often as well. Finding dispersed camping areas seems to be the way to go.

annoyingnoob 4y ago

The 50% empty problem is due to being required to reserve months in advance. I cannot tell you how a given date will be impacted 6 months into my future, I can plan but shit happens.

hcurtiss 4y ago

I strongly disagree. Prior to reservation systems, it was not uncommon to drive out to Glacier, say, only to find every camp site filled. Now you can be assured that you will have a site prior to taking the week off and hauling your family hours from home. Likewise, several popular western rivers became absolutely crushed with traffic. One year I floated 30 miles before I found a site (which was more than two regular days on that river). They needed a way to lottery or offer permits, and recreation.gov has performed better than what they used previously (though they're often gone within seconds of opening availability -- which converts first-come to a sort of lottery). I think the solution to the empty camp sites problem is a stiff penalty for failing to release the site to others prior the reserved date. For instance, last year on the John Day they said if you didn't put in on the designated day, you'd lose your ability to pull a John Day permit the following year.

briffle 4y ago
Ahh yes, the "I really want the fourth of july, but I can only book X months in advance. So I'll book a week early, and book the 27th of June through the 4th of july weekend. Then i'll wait months, and then pay the $7 fee to change my reservation, and drop the first week from my reservation." Its very sad how common this is, and makes it very difficult to find spots out west in popular areas. It really doesn't help that my state (Oregon) has almost doubled in population the last 30 years, but added almost no new camping areas since the 70's.
- ngcc_hk 4y ago
  What can one do? Popular, increase in population, only $7 to change … efficiency of market and public facilities … obviously increase supply. But given the growth and the price, demand follows … May I suggest enjoy whatever you got and fight to increase more. Not a paradise USA but much better than other places in the world. Best wish and season greetings.
- bscphil 4y ago
  > Ahh yes, the "I really want the fourth of july, but I can only book X months in advance. So I'll book a week early, and book the 27th of June through the 4th of july weekend. Then i'll wait months, and then pay the $7 fee to change my reservation, and drop the first week from my reservation." Seems like a reasonable solution to that would be allowing booking X days in advance where "days in advance" is measured by the last day of your reservation instead of your first. This would also advantage people who are okay with staying a shorter time, meaning that more people get to enjoy the park in total. Obviously none of this solves the problem of there not being enough opportunities for everyone, but this would make things more equitable as a stopgap measure.
8note 4y ago
This still leaves an opening for scalpers who have no intention of actually going to the park, just charging people to use their reservation. A different alternative would be to make those spaces an auction, and somebody can pay more to take over your reservation. At least then the park gets the money

ahepp 4y ago

How did it work if you show up at the park and the whole campsite is full? As parks get busier, it seems like permits are pretty much the only fair and realistic path forward. I loved being able to drive off and show up, but it’s also nice to be able to plan with confidence that I will have a spot. I think there are solutions to the fully booked / empty sites problem. Charge a substantial fee if you no show. Give away infilled sites using your preferred method, after 5 pm. Etc.

StillBored 4y ago
I'm fairly certain that the reservations system results in the parks being more overrun. There are other variables as well, but being able to be assured that your going to get your camp site before you arrive has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. The fact that you might arrive and not get that perfect spot serves to discourage some number of people. And many of them aren't prepared to find alternatives, or sleep in the dirt lot next to the ranger station. Which is the kind of thing that used to happen on those popular weekends at the popular sites. It frankly was never a problem for most people because they had already acknowledged to themselves that they might not get a spot, and had a backup plan. So for the first ~30 years or so of my life camping, I never made a reservation. Simply showed up and took what was available. Usually early if I thought it was going to be busy. I can't ever remember not getting a spot, even as recently as ~6-7 years ago when I took the kids to yellowstone (with a plan for camping down the road if I couldn't get a spot in the park directly). And you know what, outside of the first day when we actually went to the alternate campground because it was late when we arrived, I didn't have a problem showing up the next day at the reservations desk and getting spots for the next 4 nights. And this was still in the summer when school was out.
- Godel_unicode 4y ago
  > has everyone and their brother booking the popular places. This is good. > serves to discourage some number of people. The is bad. Sounds like the system is working well.
- tshaddox 4y ago