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> Bernie Madoff is a notable exception: he was arrested 3 days after his Ponzi was revealed. But it's not comparable at all to SBF's situation: Madoff was arres

> Bernie Madoff is a notable exception: he was arrested 3 days after his Ponzi was revealed. But it's not comparable at all to SBF's situation: Madoff was arrested after he confessed privately to his own family; his sons immediately went to the police. Not only did he confess, saying it's "basically a giant Ponzi scheme," he also said that he planned to distribute the remaining $200-$300M in funds to family, friends, and employees in the next week.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dreamcompiler 4y ago
And -- as the article points out -- Madoff was in the United States when he confessed. I rather doubt SBF will ever voluntarily set foot on US soil again.
- b112 4y ago
  Isn't there a statute of limitations for these types of crimes? (Not sure for the US here, but...) If all the data is spread to the winds, if everyone hits ground, can they even file charges? I suppose so, but if there is no evidence pointing to wrongdoing... To be honest, I'm not even sure what he supposedly did wrong. He took investments, in an unregulated sector, and backed those investments and lost? If he were a bank, that's 100% legit. No bank I know of, has 100% of investor funds backed by anything. Even in Canada, land of give-a-fuck-sorta, there used to be a requirement for banks to have hard currency (gold, cash) in a vault somewhere, 5% worth of account holder's value, which was inspected annually by the government. Yet the last time I read the bank act, it was removed as a requirement. If banks don't need any sort of banking for account holders in CAD, why would an unregulated exchange need that? (Again, I can imagine there are all sorts of things I'm missing... but?!)
  - grey-area 4y ago
    He bought a $16m house in his parents’ names with company funds (fraud). He transferred customer funds to an unrelated hedge fund company (fraud). He created fake accounting systems to hide the fraud (fraud). He claimed to be making lots of money just to help others (morally reprehensible and a huge red flag). That people are still making excuses for him tells you how rotten this entire ecosystem is.
    - tickerticker 4y ago
      SBF is so so bad. But, When does it become criminal to skip the step of establishing an accounting system....prior employees say they didn't even know their cash, liability, or trading positions. FTX customer deposits went into Alameda bank account. Could be that they stayed there and somebody just kept a spreadsheet of deposits? My point is that the astounding lack of records and systems may make it very difficult to prosecute him. For example, trades and payments were executed just on verbal orders so it will be hard to pin specifics on SBF. Probably testimony of insiders will be the most compelling evidence against him.
      - grey-area 4y ago
        Oh I suspect he had lots of records for himself (just as one example each real estate transaction had records) and the ‘stunning lack of records’ is yet another lie (along with his lies about not understanding anything), in an attempt to cover up fraud with perceived incompetence. Suddenly, it seems nobody knew anything, how convenient! He stole money and enriched himself and his family at the expense of others. He and everyone else involved including his parents, higher up employees and investors should feel deep shame.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Isn't there a statute of limitations for these types of crimes? For non-capital federal crimes, the basic rule is 5 years, but there are exceptions.
    - bink 4y ago
      Such as fleeing prosecution?
      - mrosett 4y ago
        Yes: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/question-tolling-statute-of-limitations-28325.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/question-tolling-sta...
        b112 4y ago
        He is only fleeing prosecution, if he is unavailable. For example, he can easily be contacted for interviews, with an email or phone call, or even by visiting te Bahamas. Thus he is not fleeing, or hiding from contact, and I even presume he has a lawyer, whom the police can contact. So nothing is suspended here.
    - rabite 4y ago
      The clock stops the minute that you step overseas, so as long as he's in the Bahamas there is no statute of limitations.
      - b112 4y ago
        This is not true, see my other response. Also, isn't FTX a Bahamian company? Why wouldn't he be there? And what US crime did he commit, as all the accounting stuff didn't happen in the US, but the Bahamas?
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Also, isn't FTX a Bahamian company? The FTX network of companies (see the consolidated bankruptcy filings) includes more than 100 companies, some of which are American, all of which were ultimately controlled by SBF, most of which had what records they had commingled, and most of which seem to have been tools in the same set of international frauds.
- smitty1110 4y ago
  That’s what the US-Bahamas extradition treaty is for. Edit: The treaty itself: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/94-922-Bahamas-Extradition-Treaty.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/94-922-Baha...
  - dreamcompiler 4y ago
    Yep. Thus the word "voluntarily."
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > what the US-Bahamas extradition treaty is for Which may also be why we aren't seeing a warrant. Maybe SBF is playing for sympathy. But maybe he's just delusional. If the latter is the case, there is no need to tip him off with a performative warrant.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Right thing to do would be to start the extradition process ASAP so he can’t jump the island.
    - cm2187 4y ago
      Sympathy or presidential pardon. It is astonishing the sort of kid gloves he has been treated with so far in the liberal media. I am no conspiracy theorist but this is suspicious.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > presidential pardon I’ve seen a lot of stupid conspiracy theories on HN, but the SBF political influence meme has to be one of the funniest.
  - tootie 4y ago
    There are allegations that SBF "ingratiated" himself with the Bahamian government.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dreamcompiler 4y ago

And -- as the article points out -- Madoff was in the United States when he confessed. I rather doubt SBF will ever voluntarily set foot on US soil again.

b112 4y ago
Isn't there a statute of limitations for these types of crimes? (Not sure for the US here, but...) If all the data is spread to the winds, if everyone hits ground, can they even file charges? I suppose so, but if there is no evidence pointing to wrongdoing... To be honest, I'm not even sure what he supposedly did wrong. He took investments, in an unregulated sector, and backed those investments and lost? If he were a bank, that's 100% legit. No bank I know of, has 100% of investor funds backed by anything. Even in Canada, land of give-a-fuck-sorta, there used to be a requirement for banks to have hard currency (gold, cash) in a vault somewhere, 5% worth of account holder's value, which was inspected annually by the government. Yet the last time I read the bank act, it was removed as a requirement. If banks don't need any sort of banking for account holders in CAD, why would an unregulated exchange need that? (Again, I can imagine there are all sorts of things I'm missing... but?!)
- grey-area 4y ago
  He bought a $16m house in his parents’ names with company funds (fraud). He transferred customer funds to an unrelated hedge fund company (fraud). He created fake accounting systems to hide the fraud (fraud). He claimed to be making lots of money just to help others (morally reprehensible and a huge red flag). That people are still making excuses for him tells you how rotten this entire ecosystem is.
  - tickerticker 4y ago
    SBF is so so bad. But, When does it become criminal to skip the step of establishing an accounting system....prior employees say they didn't even know their cash, liability, or trading positions. FTX customer deposits went into Alameda bank account. Could be that they stayed there and somebody just kept a spreadsheet of deposits? My point is that the astounding lack of records and systems may make it very difficult to prosecute him. For example, trades and payments were executed just on verbal orders so it will be hard to pin specifics on SBF. Probably testimony of insiders will be the most compelling evidence against him.
    - grey-area 4y ago
      Oh I suspect he had lots of records for himself (just as one example each real estate transaction had records) and the ‘stunning lack of records’ is yet another lie (along with his lies about not understanding anything), in an attempt to cover up fraud with perceived incompetence. Suddenly, it seems nobody knew anything, how convenient! He stole money and enriched himself and his family at the expense of others. He and everyone else involved including his parents, higher up employees and investors should feel deep shame.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Isn't there a statute of limitations for these types of crimes? For non-capital federal crimes, the basic rule is 5 years, but there are exceptions.
  - bink 4y ago
    Such as fleeing prosecution?
    - mrosett 4y ago
      Yes: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/question-tolling-statute-of-limitations-28325.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/question-tolling-sta...
      - b112 4y ago
        He is only fleeing prosecution, if he is unavailable. For example, he can easily be contacted for interviews, with an email or phone call, or even by visiting te Bahamas. Thus he is not fleeing, or hiding from contact, and I even presume he has a lawyer, whom the police can contact. So nothing is suspended here.
  - rabite 4y ago
    The clock stops the minute that you step overseas, so as long as he's in the Bahamas there is no statute of limitations.
    - b112 4y ago
      This is not true, see my other response. Also, isn't FTX a Bahamian company? Why wouldn't he be there? And what US crime did he commit, as all the accounting stuff didn't happen in the US, but the Bahamas?
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Also, isn't FTX a Bahamian company? The FTX network of companies (see the consolidated bankruptcy filings) includes more than 100 companies, some of which are American, all of which were ultimately controlled by SBF, most of which had what records they had commingled, and most of which seem to have been tools in the same set of international frauds.
smitty1110 4y ago
That’s what the US-Bahamas extradition treaty is for. Edit: The treaty itself: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/94-922-Bahamas-Extradition-Treaty.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/94-922-Baha...
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  Yep. Thus the word "voluntarily."
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > what the US-Bahamas extradition treaty is for Which may also be why we aren't seeing a warrant. Maybe SBF is playing for sympathy. But maybe he's just delusional. If the latter is the case, there is no need to tip him off with a performative warrant.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Right thing to do would be to start the extradition process ASAP so he can’t jump the island.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    Sympathy or presidential pardon. It is astonishing the sort of kid gloves he has been treated with so far in the liberal media. I am no conspiracy theorist but this is suspicious.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > presidential pardon I’ve seen a lot of stupid conspiracy theories on HN, but the SBF political influence meme has to be one of the funniest.
- tootie 4y ago
  There are allegations that SBF "ingratiated" himself with the Bahamian government.
- 4y ago