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i personally don’t know anyone who _wants_ to work. people work because fulfillment of basic needs has been tied to making oneself “useful” in a capitalist soci

i personally don’t know anyone who _wants_ to work. people work because fulfillment of basic needs has been tied to making oneself “useful” in a capitalist society. given a choice the vast majority of humans wouldn’t work a day in their lives.

casion 4y ago
I love working and do it even if my needs would otherwise be met by public subsidies (I am disabled, obviously and legally). It helps that I'm paid for work that I'd otherwise been doing, but I have a decent history of working less great jobs because I find the prospect of overcoming challenges, that I'd not put upon myself, satisfying.
sokoloff 4y ago
Fulfillment of basic needs was also tied (at least at the group level) to being useful in agrarian and hunter-gatherer societies. Nature is a harsh mistress and we've abstracted a lot, but not all, of that away.
smeej 4y ago
I wonder what the breakdown is between people who, if all their needs were satisfied at some agreed-upon level, would choose to engage in activities that produce something or who wouldn't. And of the ones who wouldn't, what would their reasons be? For some, I can imagine a great taste for art and travel and appreciation, which isn't "productive" per se, but is self-motivational. For others, perhaps trauma of various kinds makes the prospect of producing anything and subjecting it to scrutiny overwhelming. I'm sure there are some people who truly are just plain lazy, but I think if people truly don't want to do anything, there's usually a reason, and if that reason were overcome, most people, just because they're humans, would want to do something.
- Ajedi32 4y ago
  Most people would want to do something but not necessarily something useful. Just think about what hobbies people have, and ask yourself what percentage of those are as economically valuable as what those same people do in their day jobs. I'd suggest there are almost no cases like that, otherwise those people would quit their jobs and spend all that time on their hobbies instead. (And indeed, some have.)
  - kazen44 4y ago
    also, does everything requires to be economically valuable? Not everything is about abstrac economic value. Humans have other needs which need to be met, like social interaction and leisure.
    - Ajedi32 4y ago
      Sure, but you have to realize there's a trade off there. If you reduce the incentive to work in order to enable more social interaction and leisure, that's going to come at the expense of productivity, resulting in a diminished economic "standard of living" across the board. It also puts you at a competitive disadvantage with other societies which don't implement those reduced incentives. Now maybe that price is indeed worth it, but I think that's a decision that should be left up to each individual, not imposed at the societal level via UBI or something similar. If any particular person decides it's worth taking the economic hit in order to work less, or on something that's less economically valuable, that's completely up to them.
  - smeej 4y ago
    Yeah, that's what in was trying to get at by just saying "something." I was thinking of any activity where, at the end, something exists that didn't before. I think there's probably a giant swath of people who would want to make things for the enjoyment they get from making them. I have to disagree about hobbies, though. I think a lot of people intentionally choose not to monetize their hobbies, lest the pressure of making money infect the joy of the hobby itself.
- npteljes 4y ago
  > I wonder what the breakdown is between people who, if all their needs were satisfied at some agreed-upon level, would choose to engage in activities that produce something or who wouldn't. I really wonder too. I like UBI for example for this reason. I'd think addictions would wreak havoc among these people too though, because addictive things wait around every corner of society, promising to make the bad feelings go away. Nevertheless I think it would be a worthy effort to have a system that doesn't let people stoop down below a specific level.
np- 4y ago
That’s only because we have limited the scope and definition of “work” to just mean doing a job or task to earn money doing tasks for someone else’s interests. Most people probably hate the concept of a job, but I think human beings have an innate desire to be useful to their community (I.e. the fundamental definition of “work”)
subradios 4y ago
Big daddy Lenin was a fan of this philosophy too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neithe... Don't think it's a capitalist thing.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Eupraxias 4y ago
Hello! I love to work. I'm not a fan of business, capitalism, corporate life, or anything like that, but I love work. I'm almost 50, and have been working full-time since I was 17. Yes, full-time, even during my five years as an undergraduate. Even when I hated the work itself, I have always made the best of it. I worked in over 30 restaurants around the US for about 10 years, and had a great time of it, even though the work was horrible, grueling, and often with people I could not stand. Now I work in software development, and love my job. It's stressful as heck, often frustrating, but rewarding in many ways. Check out Karma Yoga - it's close to how I've always felt about work. Incidentally, I have no personal connection to Hinduism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_yoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_yoga

casion 4y ago

I love working and do it even if my needs would otherwise be met by public subsidies (I am disabled, obviously and legally). It helps that I'm paid for work that I'd otherwise been doing, but I have a decent history of working less great jobs because I find the prospect of overcoming challenges, that I'd not put upon myself, satisfying.

sokoloff 4y ago

Fulfillment of basic needs was also tied (at least at the group level) to being useful in agrarian and hunter-gatherer societies. Nature is a harsh mistress and we've abstracted a lot, but not all, of that away.

smeej 4y ago

I wonder what the breakdown is between people who, if all their needs were satisfied at some agreed-upon level, would choose to engage in activities that produce something or who wouldn't. And of the ones who wouldn't, what would their reasons be? For some, I can imagine a great taste for art and travel and appreciation, which isn't "productive" per se, but is self-motivational. For others, perhaps trauma of various kinds makes the prospect of producing anything and subjecting it to scrutiny overwhelming. I'm sure there are some people who truly are just plain lazy, but I think if people truly don't want to do anything, there's usually a reason, and if that reason were overcome, most people, just because they're humans, would want to do something.

Ajedi32 4y ago
Most people would want to do something but not necessarily something useful. Just think about what hobbies people have, and ask yourself what percentage of those are as economically valuable as what those same people do in their day jobs. I'd suggest there are almost no cases like that, otherwise those people would quit their jobs and spend all that time on their hobbies instead. (And indeed, some have.)
- kazen44 4y ago
  also, does everything requires to be economically valuable? Not everything is about abstrac economic value. Humans have other needs which need to be met, like social interaction and leisure.
  - Ajedi32 4y ago
    Sure, but you have to realize there's a trade off there. If you reduce the incentive to work in order to enable more social interaction and leisure, that's going to come at the expense of productivity, resulting in a diminished economic "standard of living" across the board. It also puts you at a competitive disadvantage with other societies which don't implement those reduced incentives. Now maybe that price is indeed worth it, but I think that's a decision that should be left up to each individual, not imposed at the societal level via UBI or something similar. If any particular person decides it's worth taking the economic hit in order to work less, or on something that's less economically valuable, that's completely up to them.
- smeej 4y ago
  Yeah, that's what in was trying to get at by just saying "something." I was thinking of any activity where, at the end, something exists that didn't before. I think there's probably a giant swath of people who would want to make things for the enjoyment they get from making them. I have to disagree about hobbies, though. I think a lot of people intentionally choose not to monetize their hobbies, lest the pressure of making money infect the joy of the hobby itself.
npteljes 4y ago
> I wonder what the breakdown is between people who, if all their needs were satisfied at some agreed-upon level, would choose to engage in activities that produce something or who wouldn't. I really wonder too. I like UBI for example for this reason. I'd think addictions would wreak havoc among these people too though, because addictive things wait around every corner of society, promising to make the bad feelings go away. Nevertheless I think it would be a worthy effort to have a system that doesn't let people stoop down below a specific level.

np- 4y ago

That’s only because we have limited the scope and definition of “work” to just mean doing a job or task to earn money doing tasks for someone else’s interests. Most people probably hate the concept of a job, but I think human beings have an innate desire to be useful to their community (I.e. the fundamental definition of “work”)

subradios 4y ago

Big daddy Lenin was a fan of this philosophy too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neithe... Don't think it's a capitalist thing.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Eupraxias 4y ago

Hello! I love to work. I'm not a fan of business, capitalism, corporate life, or anything like that, but I love work. I'm almost 50, and have been working full-time since I was 17. Yes, full-time, even during my five years as an undergraduate. Even when I hated the work itself, I have always made the best of it. I worked in over 30 restaurants around the US for about 10 years, and had a great time of it, even though the work was horrible, grueling, and often with people I could not stand. Now I work in software development, and love my job. It's stressful as heck, often frustrating, but rewarding in many ways. Check out Karma Yoga - it's close to how I've always felt about work. Incidentally, I have no personal connection to Hinduism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_yoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_yoga