8 ms·

So this trend has been going on for a while now, I looked a bit into it about 5 years ago here's what I found: - Tons of popular and legal products/chemicals a

So this trend has been going on for a while now, I looked a bit into it about 5 years ago here's what I found: - Tons of popular and legal products/chemicals are "endocrine disruptors"[1] (fancy term for mess with hormones). - The FDA/EPA doesn't deny that, they don't themselves even really require tests for long-term health effects in humans (too difficult). Instead they give animals a 1000x+ dose and look for immediate drastic effects (this is abbreviated "LOAEL"). That's the reason we have a xenoestrogen in the lining of soda cans (BPA), because we're trusting that tiny doses must be negligible, which isn't necessarily a valid assumption [2]. - The attitude on a lot of chemicals is "Safe until proven guilty," but when some of these chemicals are suspect (e.g. pesticides) instead of a public announcement they are pulled from public use quietly prior to the point of definitive evidence. New/similar ones can be introduced with presumption of safe until proven guilty. (Search PFOAs if you want to get a sense of how ineffective our protection mechanisms are) I came to the conclusion a radically new model is necessary, the EPA/FDA need to design models to test for fertility effects, perhaps multigenerationally, in their studies (fruit flies?) quickly. My bet is within 20 years we'll see it as the more immediate problem than global warming. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.2203/dose-response.13-020.Vandenberg https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.2203/dose-response....

rootusrootus 4y ago
Perhaps we need to invest in more testing, and then work on a whitelist instead of blacklist approach.
- njovin 4y ago
  I've heard on a few podcasts that this is how European countries do this. We need to stop letting for-profit companies gamble with the health and longevity of the species in the interest of profits.
  - Dig1t 4y ago
    You are right that this is a much better approach. The problem is Europe also has low sperm counts and are also being exposed to endocrine disruptors in the same way as the rest of the world. So whatever whitelist approach they are using does not seem to be saving them from this problem.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      There's not a huge difference between what's legal to sell in Europe and the US.
      - hazn 4y ago
        There's however a huge difference in what's being actually prescribed and what's not. Anti-Depressants and strong pain medication isn't as easy to get as in the us as in Germany.
  - r00fus 4y ago
    > We need to stop letting for-profit companies gamble with the health and longevity of the species in the interest of profits. We might want to prevent them from owning our candidates, legislators and judges first.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    The species that mutilates and heats the planet, and which created those companies? This may be a long-overdue self-correction. Global infertility may just be what solves global warming.
    - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
      You're welcome to properly end your own fertility at any time. I quite like humans.
      - kazinator 4y ago
- consumer451 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_IDA(2015)573876 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_ID...
- salawat 4y ago
  >Can we get more QA spending? You already lost.
badRNG 4y ago
> My bet is within 20 years we'll see it as the more immediate problem than global warming. I don't want to diminish the importance of a paradigm shift in how regulators treat various chemicals, but I don't think this will be anywhere near as severe and immediate threat as climate change. Ultimately, if there is a substantial pool of people who's fertility is not adversely impacted by some yet to be identified chemical, then it will be those people who's genes will pass on. Within a generation we as a species will have developed resistance to at least the impact on fertility by some unregulated chemical.
- FeepingCreature 4y ago
  Ultimately, if there's a substantial pool of people who are not existentially threatened by global warming...
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    In both cases, a substantial part of this pool depends on the modern institutions and global supply chains for survival, which are existentially threatened by both climate change and population reduction.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Global warming importance as an issue is slowly fading as the world is changing. Make room for new issues.
  - jesterson 4y ago
    Spot on. There is substantial amount of companies/people profiteering from climate change fearmongering, so we may expect the trend not to go down very fast
    - abenga 4y ago
      Really? I get the sense we (as in all of us collectively) are not taking it seriously enough. I wonder where this "fearmongering" is happening. A lot of stuff that is happening (the Western US drought that seems to be the worst in a millenium plus the consequent heavy use of groundwater, triple dip la nina, etc.) seem like they should worry us more than they actually are.
jamiegreen 4y ago
As someone who is too lazy to do their own research on this topic....did you happen to find which products generally contain the most endocrine disruptors?
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  They'll be in basically all of the plastic around you - since the chemicals do a good job at plasticizing (making plastic less brittle). If you want a more thorough list, the NIH compiled this --- What are some common endocrine disruptors? Bisphenol A (BPA) — used to make polycarbonate plastics and epoxy resins, which are found in many plastic products including food storage containers Dioxins — produced as a byproduct in herbicide production and paper bleaching, they are also released into the environment during waste burning and wildfires Perchlorate — a by-product of aerospace, weapon, and pharmaceutical industries found in drinking water and fireworks Perfluoroalkyl and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) — used widely in industrial applications, such as firefighting foams and non-stick pan, paper, and textile coatings Phthalates — used to make plastics more flexible, they are also found in some food packaging, cosmetics, children’s toys, and medical devices Phytoestrogens — naturally occurring substances in plants that have hormone-like activity, such as genistein and daidzein that are in soy products, like tofu or soy milk Polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDE) — used to make flame retardants for household products such as furniture foam and carpets Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB) — used to make electrical equipment like transformers, and in hydraulic fluids, heat transfer fluids, lubricants, and plasticizers Triclosan — may be found in some anti-microbial and personal care products, like liquid body wash
  - comte7092 4y ago
    One of these is not like the others: > Phytoestrogens — naturally occurring substances in plants that have hormone-like activity, such as genistein and daidzein that are in soy products, like tofu or soy milk Your comment doesn’t explicitly say that Phytoestrogens are only present in soy, but it should be clear that such compounds are extremely common, even though people tend to single out soy (largely because soy has been the most studied for potentially positive health reasons). Phytoestrogens are present in many different grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, vegetables, etc [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen?wprov=sfti1
moonchrome 4y ago
This appears to be a global trend.
tjpnz 4y ago
How can this be fixed given the vested interests involved?
- janalsncm 4y ago
  Maybe it can be balanced by the vested interests of the rest of us in not being poisoned.
- isthisthingon99 4y ago
  Through history, only a mass of people have forced a change. That's not possible until you start changing first. And when people around you notice, educate them. It will take time, eventually it will happen.
pyinstallwoes 4y ago
Did you make any lifestyle changes after your research?
etrautmann 4y ago
comparing this to climate change is a false dilemma. We can and should address both, and framing it this way is unhelpful to both issues.
hollosi 4y ago
Plummeting sperm counts is a worldwide trend. On the other hand, people in more industrial countries are exposed to different chemicals (BPA, FPOAs, flame retardants, food additives, etc.), than people in more agrarian countries (field chemicals, like fertilizers and pesticides). These chemicals are all harmful, but it's hard to blame a single class of them for a global problem. If I had to pick a truly universal issue, I would say childhood and young adult obesity. Surprisingly, obesity is growing rapidly even in countries where hunger is also a problem.

rootusrootus 4y ago

Perhaps we need to invest in more testing, and then work on a whitelist instead of blacklist approach.

njovin 4y ago
I've heard on a few podcasts that this is how European countries do this. We need to stop letting for-profit companies gamble with the health and longevity of the species in the interest of profits.
- Dig1t 4y ago
  You are right that this is a much better approach. The problem is Europe also has low sperm counts and are also being exposed to endocrine disruptors in the same way as the rest of the world. So whatever whitelist approach they are using does not seem to be saving them from this problem.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    There's not a huge difference between what's legal to sell in Europe and the US.
    - hazn 4y ago
      There's however a huge difference in what's being actually prescribed and what's not. Anti-Depressants and strong pain medication isn't as easy to get as in the us as in Germany.
- r00fus 4y ago
  > We need to stop letting for-profit companies gamble with the health and longevity of the species in the interest of profits. We might want to prevent them from owning our candidates, legislators and judges first.
- kazinator 4y ago
  The species that mutilates and heats the planet, and which created those companies? This may be a long-overdue self-correction. Global infertility may just be what solves global warming.
  - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
    You're welcome to properly end your own fertility at any time. I quite like humans.
    - kazinator 4y ago
consumer451 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_IDA(2015)573876 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_ID...
salawat 4y ago
>Can we get more QA spending? You already lost.

badRNG 4y ago

> My bet is within 20 years we'll see it as the more immediate problem than global warming. I don't want to diminish the importance of a paradigm shift in how regulators treat various chemicals, but I don't think this will be anywhere near as severe and immediate threat as climate change. Ultimately, if there is a substantial pool of people who's fertility is not adversely impacted by some yet to be identified chemical, then it will be those people who's genes will pass on. Within a generation we as a species will have developed resistance to at least the impact on fertility by some unregulated chemical.

FeepingCreature 4y ago
Ultimately, if there's a substantial pool of people who are not existentially threatened by global warming...
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  In both cases, a substantial part of this pool depends on the modern institutions and global supply chains for survival, which are existentially threatened by both climate change and population reduction.
ipaddr 4y ago
Global warming importance as an issue is slowly fading as the world is changing. Make room for new issues.
- jesterson 4y ago
  Spot on. There is substantial amount of companies/people profiteering from climate change fearmongering, so we may expect the trend not to go down very fast
  - abenga 4y ago
    Really? I get the sense we (as in all of us collectively) are not taking it seriously enough. I wonder where this "fearmongering" is happening. A lot of stuff that is happening (the Western US drought that seems to be the worst in a millenium plus the consequent heavy use of groundwater, triple dip la nina, etc.) seem like they should worry us more than they actually are.

jamiegreen 4y ago

As someone who is too lazy to do their own research on this topic....did you happen to find which products generally contain the most endocrine disruptors?

horsawlarway 4y ago
They'll be in basically all of the plastic around you - since the chemicals do a good job at plasticizing (making plastic less brittle). If you want a more thorough list, the NIH compiled this --- What are some common endocrine disruptors? Bisphenol A (BPA) — used to make polycarbonate plastics and epoxy resins, which are found in many plastic products including food storage containers Dioxins — produced as a byproduct in herbicide production and paper bleaching, they are also released into the environment during waste burning and wildfires Perchlorate — a by-product of aerospace, weapon, and pharmaceutical industries found in drinking water and fireworks Perfluoroalkyl and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) — used widely in industrial applications, such as firefighting foams and non-stick pan, paper, and textile coatings Phthalates — used to make plastics more flexible, they are also found in some food packaging, cosmetics, children’s toys, and medical devices Phytoestrogens — naturally occurring substances in plants that have hormone-like activity, such as genistein and daidzein that are in soy products, like tofu or soy milk Polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDE) — used to make flame retardants for household products such as furniture foam and carpets Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB) — used to make electrical equipment like transformers, and in hydraulic fluids, heat transfer fluids, lubricants, and plasticizers Triclosan — may be found in some anti-microbial and personal care products, like liquid body wash
- comte7092 4y ago
  One of these is not like the others: > Phytoestrogens — naturally occurring substances in plants that have hormone-like activity, such as genistein and daidzein that are in soy products, like tofu or soy milk Your comment doesn’t explicitly say that Phytoestrogens are only present in soy, but it should be clear that such compounds are extremely common, even though people tend to single out soy (largely because soy has been the most studied for potentially positive health reasons). Phytoestrogens are present in many different grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, vegetables, etc [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen?wprov=sfti1

moonchrome 4y ago

This appears to be a global trend.

tjpnz 4y ago

How can this be fixed given the vested interests involved?

janalsncm 4y ago
Maybe it can be balanced by the vested interests of the rest of us in not being poisoned.
isthisthingon99 4y ago
Through history, only a mass of people have forced a change. That's not possible until you start changing first. And when people around you notice, educate them. It will take time, eventually it will happen.

pyinstallwoes 4y ago

Did you make any lifestyle changes after your research?

etrautmann 4y ago

comparing this to climate change is a false dilemma. We can and should address both, and framing it this way is unhelpful to both issues.

hollosi 4y ago

Plummeting sperm counts is a worldwide trend. On the other hand, people in more industrial countries are exposed to different chemicals (BPA, FPOAs, flame retardants, food additives, etc.), than people in more agrarian countries (field chemicals, like fertilizers and pesticides). These chemicals are all harmful, but it's hard to blame a single class of them for a global problem. If I had to pick a truly universal issue, I would say childhood and young adult obesity. Surprisingly, obesity is growing rapidly even in countries where hunger is also a problem.