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The way I see it the users have two crappy options based on business model: 1) Apple's freedom from inspection: they control your device and their ecosystem be

The way I see it the users have two crappy options based on business model: 1) Apple's freedom from inspection: they control your device and their ecosystem because they make money off the ecosystem. The take a cut of the phone/computer/watch you buy then anything you buy in their ecosystem because the ecosystem is their product. Your data is (mostly) safe from advertisers because that's not their business. 2) Google's device freedom: you can do whatever you want with your device because your are the product. Sure you can load a complete separate system of mail and chat clients and not sign into google, but really, will you? Of course there's option 3, linux. Neither the ecosystem or you is the product, but where's the money in that. No one is going to spend billions of dollars to get you to buy Linux. Whether Apple or Google (or MS or w/e) is the arch villain is really just a matter of perspective. Is two or three options a great place for consumers? No, of course not, it all sucks. I think a system built around who-gets-the-most-money-wins is the real problem.

rosnd 4y ago
Android is Linux.
- ogsalmanxx 4y ago
  Android is Linux w/ Malware … omegalol
- adamwk 4y ago
  Android is linux as much as iOS is BSD
  - surajrmal 4y ago
    What you are referring to isn't Linux. It's Linux + a free desktop compliant userspace. Linux is just a kernel which is in fact shared between both. I'm not sure why the community hasn't come up with a better name to help disambiguate the two.
    - bigfudge 4y ago
      People talk about the Linux kernel vs linux (the complete system). I’m not sure why nerds are still litigating this sort of thing years after the who gnu linux thing.
      - rosnd 4y ago
        > linux (the complete system) Like Android? >I’m not sure why nerds are still litigating this sort of thing years after the who gnu linux thing. Because most Linux users are no longer interacting with GNU/Linux.
  - rosnd 4y ago
    How do you mean? The "Android kernel" is not meaningfully different from the Linux kernel. 4.4BSD however was released in 1993, so iOS would've had decades to diverge from it.
    - xnickb 4y ago
      But we'll not know unless they open source it. chuckle
      - mort96 4y ago
        Darwin is open source. Here's the repo for their kernel: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu/tree/main https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu/tree/main. The userspace stuff can be found here: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/distribution-macOS/ https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/distribution-macO.... Some stuff that's missing from those links, such as launchd, can be found here: https://github.com/apple-opensource?tab=repositories https://github.com/apple-opensource?tab=repositories
- yarg 4y ago
  With a license that prohibits OEMs from distributing forked versions.
- grepLeigh 4y ago
  Sure, in the way orcs were elves once.
  - rosnd 4y ago
    That's a ridiculous comparison, the Android kernel patchset is tiny https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/common-patches/ https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/common-patches/ It consists of "massive" changes such as: > Enable writable clock debugfs files which are required for debugging and testing and > Allow drivers to register hooks when IPIs are sent and handled. The statistics of these IPIs are helpful in predicting CPU idle states I suppose any distro backporting fixes is also not Linux? RHEL definitely can't be Linux if Android isn't.
    - anonymous_sorry 4y ago
      This disagreement is purely about semantics. In case its not clear, Linux the operating system typically means the Linux kernel plus a set of unix-inspired GPL-licenced userspace tools. Some (still) call this GNU/Linux, although that is a bit of a mouthful. Android has a completely different userspace to "Linux". The kernel is not the issue.
      - rosnd 4y ago
        Well that's silly, the userspace you are talking about is strictly useless on phones. Every single attempt at building a reasonable mobile userspace for GNU/Linux has been a complete failure. What would that even look like? Almost all graphical GNU/Linux tools depend on X11, which is completely unsuited for phones. But if you want, you can totally install all the GNU userspace tools on Android. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
        anonymous_sorry 4y ago
        Nevertheless, there is something people call "Linux" that is a full OS (rather than just a kernel). Android differs substantially from that. Just semantics.
ProAm 4y ago
> Your data is (mostly) safe from advertisers because that's not their business. I think with Apple this ship is slowly sailing, and the tracking will soon be just as bad as Google.
- s3p 4y ago
  How so? I think their strides in fields like differential privacy show how willing they are to protect their end users.
  - ProAm 4y ago
    I personally think their migration to subscription based revenue and advertising says differently (just personal opinion). Were now the product with Apple too, not the customer. We used to pay more to not deal with that.
    - api 4y ago
      It seems that advertisers can outbid users to the point that nobody is willing to pay enough to be the customer. The amount of money in advertising is staggering. Can it actually work that well? Or is this a category of spending that just tends to be greenlit in big companies?
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      There’s a huge difference, including from a privacy perspective, between subscriptions and internet targeted advertising. How are you the product, when you’re giving money? That’s like saying, when you buy a ticket to Black Panther, you are the product Hollywood is selling, not the movie.
      - satvikpendem 4y ago
        > How are you the product, when you’re giving money? Why can't you be both? After all, an advertiser's best target is someone who already has a propensity to spend. Companies can and do sell you stuff then also target you for ads.
sureglymop 4y ago
And with Apple you are not the product? You're being tracked and shown ads on Apple devices too, it's just that you have even less control and Apple has a "worked" on their image in that regard.
- voisin 4y ago
  Are you honestly suggesting that Google and Apple are the same in this regards?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Apart from App Store recommendations, where are you seeing Apple-originated ads on an iPhone?
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    News, Stocks, Apple Music are all big sources of ad junk. That's without mentioning all of the iCloud/service nags like AppleTV.
    - zaroth 4y ago
      So just long tap and uninstall them? It’s not analogous to the Windows Start Menu showing ads you can’t turn off. What are the nags? I also don’t use Apple TV and don’t recall being nagged to use it. The only thing that annoys me is the prompt to “finish setting up” my phone when I don’t want to turn on Siri. I get the prompt a few times and then it gives up trying to get me to turn on Siri and stays happily disabled.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        I mean, I can also click the little 'x' button on YouTube banner ads, but that doesn't make them any less annoying. Apple's promotion of their own services in MacOS makes it impossible to live in for me in the same way I can't browse the web without uBlock Origin. Blocking out nagware helps me focus.
bakugo 4y ago
Great to see Apple users are still deluding themselves into thinking they're not the product despite constant reports of Apple spying on them just like everyone else
- marricks 4y ago
  The extent really matters. I don't care if Apple tracks App Store clicks or what I (don't) read on Apple News. I would care, a lot, if they tracked my browser history, chats, and email. Could Apple conceivably be spying on my every move? Well... they really don't need to to make App Store recommendations so I doubt it. When, and if, ever launches its own web advertising client which they bill as "privacy focused" I'll start being skeptical but until then there's way better things to throw tin foil at.
saurik 4y ago
The big competitor to Apple is Samsung, and Samsung devices tend to be just as locked down as Apple devices (though the prevalence of jailbreaks has been higher, and of course you can sideload apps). Those two companies make up over 75% of smartphones in the US, and neither of their next competitors down (OnePlus and Lenovo) are Google. People talk about Android like it is the "do anything you want device marketed at end users", but it is the "do anything you want operating system marketed at device manufacturers". One of the many things you can do with such a device is lock it down, and that's what companies who make devices that run Android, like quite-notably Samsung, have largely decided to do. Google's first-party devices are often quite open, and that's cool and all, but they do not have much marketshare because, in the end, they kind of suck with the various limited hardware tradeoffs they make. Users, generally, are unable to provide a very strong purchasing signal preference on "is an open device" because they are too busy optimizing for having good cameras or screens or whatever it is that they consider the primary point of owning the phone in the first place is. At the end of the day, Android then become more of a coalition of brands herded by Google--but led by Samsung, whom at least used to make the vast majority of the actual profit, disproportionate even to their marketshare--in attempts to reign them in on what crazy changes they make, but those limitations do not enforce the device to be open... far from it, really! And so we have seen Google also the target of lawsuits for anti-competitive behavior with their store (including by Epic, whose argument almost made more sense against Google than Apple).
- metiscus 4y ago
  I have owned many Samsung android devices over the years and have always been able to install fdroid and other alternate app stores as well as "side load" applications from apk files. Is there a new thing where Samsung have removed this feature in recent (last two years or so) devices?
  - hparadiz 4y ago
    The bootloader in on Samsung Android devices is extremely locked down to prevent rooting. Sideloading is a basic android feature. Ability to root and sideloading are two different but similar issues on the topic of freedom.
rhaway84773 4y ago
Apple already implements a solution on the Mac. The Mac defaults to signed apps. And you need to change a setting to allow unsigned apps. iOS could easily default to what we have today, but allow the installation of non App Store apps after users change a setting and confirm after reading a scary warning pop up, that tells users they may be exposing themselves to data theft, hacking, viruses and money theft.
- biztos 4y ago
  I really want this to happen, and I hope Apple is forced to make it happen — a fairly likely scenario in the EU I think — but if they do allow side-loading I fear they will disable all sorts of Apple services when you flip that switch. No more Apple Pay, for starters. Maybe no iMessage. Things where they can argue they have to turn them off to protect the user, and/or themselves, from rogue apps. And then you could have a kind of freedom, but it wouldn’t be a very useful one. You can already load whatever you want on your own phone if you have the source and do the build yourself. I can pretty easily imagine Apple making it so you can side load closed apps but almost nobody ever does.
  - SxC97 4y ago
    Yes, if you disable SIP on ARM Macs, apple already disables Apple Pay and running iOS apps as I found out the hard way.
  - fingerlocks 4y ago
    Agreed. The real reason is the inevitable avalanche of support requests that hit when some popular side loaded app introduces a 0-day. No one at the Genius Bar is going to touch your toxic device. That means no Apple Care or iCloud backups either. Support is expensive. Apple spends a lot of money to provide what is generally very excellent support. It’s a huge component of the overall brand for many users that stay in their ecosystem.
    - behnamoh 4y ago
      Apple wouldn't want that in the first place because a customer who's angry at a 0-day (even if it wasn't caused by Apple) still hurts Apple's brand image. Apple has gone a long way by sticking to the safest paths, meaning they do things that cause the most customer satisfaction, and don't do anything that can go wrong. That's why Apple abandoned the iCar project because while many would like the concept, a car experience is not something that Apple can have control over; if users get into car accidents, for example, that hurts Apple's brand no matter the cause of the incident. In comparison, making phones, Macs, tablets, etc. is fairly safe as long as Apple retains its full control over the experience (which must be perfect for most consumers). Because of this, I don't really see Apple allowing app sideloading, even though I personally like it. I think the more pressing issue right now is the 30% cut on AppStore.
satvikpendem 4y ago
> Your data is (mostly) safe from advertisers because that's not their business. I beg to differ. Apple is becoming an ad company despite privacy claims https://proton.me/blog/apple-ad-company https://proton.me/blog/apple-ad-company https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33736259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33736259
- marricks 4y ago
  Both your links go to the same Proton article and the heart of it seems to be this: > Apple monitors your every move in the App Store and its News and Stocks apps and then uses that data to sell ads targeting you in those same apps. To meet its growth forecasts, experts expect Apple to start selling ads in its Maps, Podcast, and Books apps, meaning it could replicate this model across more of its services. Much more of your activity could be monitored in the future. Tracking every click in the App Store/News/Stocks is not great but it is in NO WAY similar to tracking every website I view and reading every email I send.
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    Why do you assume Apple doesn't also track every website and email you read (especially if you use the default Apple-made apps)? After all, they make the OS, they can track whatever they want.
    - majormajor 4y ago
      Nobody's reported seeing that sort of network traffic sent off of iOS devices. It's trivially easy to spot it, and it's well documented, going to Google and others across the web, though.
      - mortehu 4y ago
        On my iPhone, Safari browser history synchronization to iCloud was enabled by default.
djbusby 4y ago
RIM had a chance, I think. They had cool devices, could have forked Android and owned enterprise/privacy focused buyers. Maybe Nokia can come back.
ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
> 2) Google's device freedom: you can do whatever you want with your device because your are the product. Sure you can load a complete separate system of mail and chat clients and not sign into google, but really, will you? Typing this from a Pixel running GrapheneOS, and it's a great experience. So, yeah, I did.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

rosnd 4y ago

Android is Linux.

ogsalmanxx 4y ago
Android is Linux w/ Malware … omegalol
adamwk 4y ago
Android is linux as much as iOS is BSD
- surajrmal 4y ago
  What you are referring to isn't Linux. It's Linux + a free desktop compliant userspace. Linux is just a kernel which is in fact shared between both. I'm not sure why the community hasn't come up with a better name to help disambiguate the two.
  - bigfudge 4y ago
    People talk about the Linux kernel vs linux (the complete system). I’m not sure why nerds are still litigating this sort of thing years after the who gnu linux thing.
    - rosnd 4y ago
      > linux (the complete system) Like Android? >I’m not sure why nerds are still litigating this sort of thing years after the who gnu linux thing. Because most Linux users are no longer interacting with GNU/Linux.
- rosnd 4y ago
  How do you mean? The "Android kernel" is not meaningfully different from the Linux kernel. 4.4BSD however was released in 1993, so iOS would've had decades to diverge from it.
  - xnickb 4y ago
    But we'll not know unless they open source it. chuckle
    - mort96 4y ago
      Darwin is open source. Here's the repo for their kernel: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu/tree/main https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/xnu/tree/main. The userspace stuff can be found here: https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/distribution-macOS/ https://github.com/apple-oss-distributions/distribution-macO.... Some stuff that's missing from those links, such as launchd, can be found here: https://github.com/apple-opensource?tab=repositories https://github.com/apple-opensource?tab=repositories
yarg 4y ago
With a license that prohibits OEMs from distributing forked versions.
grepLeigh 4y ago
Sure, in the way orcs were elves once.
- rosnd 4y ago
  That's a ridiculous comparison, the Android kernel patchset is tiny https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/common-patches/ https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/common-patches/ It consists of "massive" changes such as: > Enable writable clock debugfs files which are required for debugging and testing and > Allow drivers to register hooks when IPIs are sent and handled. The statistics of these IPIs are helpful in predicting CPU idle states I suppose any distro backporting fixes is also not Linux? RHEL definitely can't be Linux if Android isn't.
  - anonymous_sorry 4y ago
    This disagreement is purely about semantics. In case its not clear, Linux the operating system typically means the Linux kernel plus a set of unix-inspired GPL-licenced userspace tools. Some (still) call this GNU/Linux, although that is a bit of a mouthful. Android has a completely different userspace to "Linux". The kernel is not the issue.
    - rosnd 4y ago
      Well that's silly, the userspace you are talking about is strictly useless on phones. Every single attempt at building a reasonable mobile userspace for GNU/Linux has been a complete failure. What would that even look like? Almost all graphical GNU/Linux tools depend on X11, which is completely unsuited for phones. But if you want, you can totally install all the GNU userspace tools on Android. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
      - anonymous_sorry 4y ago
        Nevertheless, there is something people call "Linux" that is a full OS (rather than just a kernel). Android differs substantially from that. Just semantics.

ProAm 4y ago

> Your data is (mostly) safe from advertisers because that's not their business. I think with Apple this ship is slowly sailing, and the tracking will soon be just as bad as Google.

s3p 4y ago
How so? I think their strides in fields like differential privacy show how willing they are to protect their end users.
- ProAm 4y ago
  I personally think their migration to subscription based revenue and advertising says differently (just personal opinion). Were now the product with Apple too, not the customer. We used to pay more to not deal with that.
  - api 4y ago
    It seems that advertisers can outbid users to the point that nobody is willing to pay enough to be the customer. The amount of money in advertising is staggering. Can it actually work that well? Or is this a category of spending that just tends to be greenlit in big companies?
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    There’s a huge difference, including from a privacy perspective, between subscriptions and internet targeted advertising. How are you the product, when you’re giving money? That’s like saying, when you buy a ticket to Black Panther, you are the product Hollywood is selling, not the movie.
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      > How are you the product, when you’re giving money? Why can't you be both? After all, an advertiser's best target is someone who already has a propensity to spend. Companies can and do sell you stuff then also target you for ads.

sureglymop 4y ago

And with Apple you are not the product? You're being tracked and shown ads on Apple devices too, it's just that you have even less control and Apple has a "worked" on their image in that regard.

voisin 4y ago
Are you honestly suggesting that Google and Apple are the same in this regards?
woodruffw 4y ago
Apart from App Store recommendations, where are you seeing Apple-originated ads on an iPhone?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  News, Stocks, Apple Music are all big sources of ad junk. That's without mentioning all of the iCloud/service nags like AppleTV.
  - zaroth 4y ago
    So just long tap and uninstall them? It’s not analogous to the Windows Start Menu showing ads you can’t turn off. What are the nags? I also don’t use Apple TV and don’t recall being nagged to use it. The only thing that annoys me is the prompt to “finish setting up” my phone when I don’t want to turn on Siri. I get the prompt a few times and then it gives up trying to get me to turn on Siri and stays happily disabled.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      I mean, I can also click the little 'x' button on YouTube banner ads, but that doesn't make them any less annoying. Apple's promotion of their own services in MacOS makes it impossible to live in for me in the same way I can't browse the web without uBlock Origin. Blocking out nagware helps me focus.

bakugo 4y ago

Great to see Apple users are still deluding themselves into thinking they're not the product despite constant reports of Apple spying on them just like everyone else

marricks 4y ago
The extent really matters. I don't care if Apple tracks App Store clicks or what I (don't) read on Apple News. I would care, a lot, if they tracked my browser history, chats, and email. Could Apple conceivably be spying on my every move? Well... they really don't need to to make App Store recommendations so I doubt it. When, and if, ever launches its own web advertising client which they bill as "privacy focused" I'll start being skeptical but until then there's way better things to throw tin foil at.

saurik 4y ago

The big competitor to Apple is Samsung, and Samsung devices tend to be just as locked down as Apple devices (though the prevalence of jailbreaks has been higher, and of course you can sideload apps). Those two companies make up over 75% of smartphones in the US, and neither of their next competitors down (OnePlus and Lenovo) are Google. People talk about Android like it is the "do anything you want device marketed at end users", but it is the "do anything you want operating system marketed at device manufacturers". One of the many things you can do with such a device is lock it down, and that's what companies who make devices that run Android, like quite-notably Samsung, have largely decided to do. Google's first-party devices are often quite open, and that's cool and all, but they do not have much marketshare because, in the end, they kind of suck with the various limited hardware tradeoffs they make. Users, generally, are unable to provide a very strong purchasing signal preference on "is an open device" because they are too busy optimizing for having good cameras or screens or whatever it is that they consider the primary point of owning the phone in the first place is. At the end of the day, Android then become more of a coalition of brands herded by Google--but led by Samsung, whom at least used to make the vast majority of the actual profit, disproportionate even to their marketshare--in attempts to reign them in on what crazy changes they make, but those limitations do not enforce the device to be open... far from it, really! And so we have seen Google also the target of lawsuits for anti-competitive behavior with their store (including by Epic, whose argument almost made more sense against Google than Apple).

metiscus 4y ago
I have owned many Samsung android devices over the years and have always been able to install fdroid and other alternate app stores as well as "side load" applications from apk files. Is there a new thing where Samsung have removed this feature in recent (last two years or so) devices?
- hparadiz 4y ago
  The bootloader in on Samsung Android devices is extremely locked down to prevent rooting. Sideloading is a basic android feature. Ability to root and sideloading are two different but similar issues on the topic of freedom.

rhaway84773 4y ago

Apple already implements a solution on the Mac. The Mac defaults to signed apps. And you need to change a setting to allow unsigned apps. iOS could easily default to what we have today, but allow the installation of non App Store apps after users change a setting and confirm after reading a scary warning pop up, that tells users they may be exposing themselves to data theft, hacking, viruses and money theft.

biztos 4y ago
I really want this to happen, and I hope Apple is forced to make it happen — a fairly likely scenario in the EU I think — but if they do allow side-loading I fear they will disable all sorts of Apple services when you flip that switch. No more Apple Pay, for starters. Maybe no iMessage. Things where they can argue they have to turn them off to protect the user, and/or themselves, from rogue apps. And then you could have a kind of freedom, but it wouldn’t be a very useful one. You can already load whatever you want on your own phone if you have the source and do the build yourself. I can pretty easily imagine Apple making it so you can side load closed apps but almost nobody ever does.
- SxC97 4y ago
  Yes, if you disable SIP on ARM Macs, apple already disables Apple Pay and running iOS apps as I found out the hard way.
- fingerlocks 4y ago
  Agreed. The real reason is the inevitable avalanche of support requests that hit when some popular side loaded app introduces a 0-day. No one at the Genius Bar is going to touch your toxic device. That means no Apple Care or iCloud backups either. Support is expensive. Apple spends a lot of money to provide what is generally very excellent support. It’s a huge component of the overall brand for many users that stay in their ecosystem.
  - behnamoh 4y ago
    Apple wouldn't want that in the first place because a customer who's angry at a 0-day (even if it wasn't caused by Apple) still hurts Apple's brand image. Apple has gone a long way by sticking to the safest paths, meaning they do things that cause the most customer satisfaction, and don't do anything that can go wrong. That's why Apple abandoned the iCar project because while many would like the concept, a car experience is not something that Apple can have control over; if users get into car accidents, for example, that hurts Apple's brand no matter the cause of the incident. In comparison, making phones, Macs, tablets, etc. is fairly safe as long as Apple retains its full control over the experience (which must be perfect for most consumers). Because of this, I don't really see Apple allowing app sideloading, even though I personally like it. I think the more pressing issue right now is the 30% cut on AppStore.

satvikpendem 4y ago

> Your data is (mostly) safe from advertisers because that's not their business. I beg to differ. Apple is becoming an ad company despite privacy claims https://proton.me/blog/apple-ad-company https://proton.me/blog/apple-ad-company https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33736259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33736259

marricks 4y ago
Both your links go to the same Proton article and the heart of it seems to be this: > Apple monitors your every move in the App Store and its News and Stocks apps and then uses that data to sell ads targeting you in those same apps. To meet its growth forecasts, experts expect Apple to start selling ads in its Maps, Podcast, and Books apps, meaning it could replicate this model across more of its services. Much more of your activity could be monitored in the future. Tracking every click in the App Store/News/Stocks is not great but it is in NO WAY similar to tracking every website I view and reading every email I send.
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  Why do you assume Apple doesn't also track every website and email you read (especially if you use the default Apple-made apps)? After all, they make the OS, they can track whatever they want.
  - majormajor 4y ago
    Nobody's reported seeing that sort of network traffic sent off of iOS devices. It's trivially easy to spot it, and it's well documented, going to Google and others across the web, though.
    - mortehu 4y ago
      On my iPhone, Safari browser history synchronization to iCloud was enabled by default.

djbusby 4y ago

RIM had a chance, I think. They had cool devices, could have forked Android and owned enterprise/privacy focused buyers. Maybe Nokia can come back.

ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago

> 2) Google's device freedom: you can do whatever you want with your device because your are the product. Sure you can load a complete separate system of mail and chat clients and not sign into google, but really, will you? Typing this from a Pixel running GrapheneOS, and it's a great experience. So, yeah, I did.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]