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It seems to be very hard to distinguish between bullying and rough play. Rough play is a developmental requirement (particularly for young boys) across the homi

It seems to be very hard to distinguish between bullying and rough play. Rough play is a developmental requirement (particularly for young boys) across the hominoid clade (and likely wider). Being denied it also has real and lifelong consequences. For further reading, Frans de Waal has done a lot of work in this area. Educational policy informed by this research usually looks not to intervene in physical conflict between equally matched (by size/age) peers. It also looks at conflict management and resolution as a primary responsibility of the peer group, rather than the adults/teachers, with the escalation path being to older peers before adults.

TylerE 4y ago
An interesting approach I read - I think it was a novel, honestly, but may have been an autobiography - was that fights were not just tolerated but sanctioned, with one big proviso: In the gym, with boxing gloves and headgear on, and fists only. Going down or taking a knee ends the fight. Let 'em work out the tension, but with very minimal chance of hurting anything.
- macinjosh 4y ago
  I am here for safe and supervised middle school duels. It would have helped me a lot. I went to a strict religious school and a kid who bullied me over years pushed me too far one day and I started after him, got maybe one kick to his leg in. Teachers stopped me immediately, but never did the same for the years of verbal abuse mocking me for my weight though. I ended up getting spanked by the principal with a thick wooden paddle in front of my teacher that day. This was the mid to late 90s. I heard once the kid who bullied me is in prison now.
  - erdos4d 4y ago
    You should get the straight facts on that kid and what he did and confront the school over it. They obviously failed across the board with him and probably someone got hurt for him to get time. They could have done things to correct his behavior, instead they punished you for lashing out against his abuse. This needs to show up when people search that school so other parents know how they really are and avoid sending their kids there.
- dpkirchner 4y ago
  I wonder how many people would be still willing to fight if they were forced to delay for some amount of time (hours?). My hunch is it'd be very few, which would be a win.
- ilaksh 4y ago
  This is completely unrelated to the harassment, abuse and assaults labelled as "bullying".
- bentley 4y ago
  I was a peaceful kid and no good at gym class, which played some part in why I was bullied. What benefit would I have received from officially sanctioning my regular physical humiliation?
  - TylerE 4y ago
    Well, for one it forces the school to scknowledge thst'd it's happening, which is at least half the battle. And of course both sides must agree, you can't be forced in to it.
    - XorNot 4y ago
      So let me just game out what happens: The bully comes up and shoves a kid around, doing some minor injuries. The bullied raises the matter to school authorities. Their solution is "would you like to fight the bully some more?" --- At what point did the victim want to get involved in this? The victim didn't instigate violence, the victim didn't want to participate in violence, the victim wants the violence to stop and to feel safe at school. And you propose to instead offer them "would you like to risk more bodily injury engaging in violence?"
anonym29 4y ago
Rough play is voluntary, being a victim of bullying isn't. I say this as someone who engaged in rough play, got bullied, and was a bully, at different times.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  Learning how to respond to antisocial behaviour by a peer, and being able to resolve conflict independently, are two very important skills that it's critical to learn. Being seen as someone who needs adult help to resolve peer conflict is socially disastrous for young people. We do children no favours by intervening in this developmental process.
  - david-gpu 4y ago
    > We do children no favours by intervening in this developmental process. Will you do the same when your child is being bullied? How do you think that may affect them and their relationship with you? How do you think a child feels when they realize that the adults around them do not have their back? What does it do to their sense of safety and their self-esteem? I have lived through this and have my personal take on these questions, but I'd love to learn about yours.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Like with most things, I think the right move for an adult is to help the child solve the problem themselves, rather than do it for them. As other posts have mentioned, learning when and how to apply violence is a critical skill. We (particularly children) do not live in a post-violence society. Children should of course not feel abandoned by those closest to them, but being overprotective can have its own negative consequences for development. It's clearly a fine line to walk, but if you're being bullied then what you need is to learn how to address/discourage that behaviour - not an intervention. Otherwise all you're doing is deferring the learning experience until next time. Past a certain window it's very hard to learn this skill, and you can be stuck with a helpless mentality for your whole life.
mc32 4y ago
There is also "rough teasing" which isn't quite bullying --but can turn into bullying sometimes. It often calls for take but give. This typically can happen within your in-group.
ilaksh 4y ago
Humans have physical games with rules. "Bullying" is nothing like that.
agumonkey 4y ago
Depends, if it becomes chronic rough play you know something might be wrong. If you're close enough and can see that it's asymmetrical and the victim is always the same, someone should intervene.

TylerE 4y ago

An interesting approach I read - I think it was a novel, honestly, but may have been an autobiography - was that fights were not just tolerated but sanctioned, with one big proviso: In the gym, with boxing gloves and headgear on, and fists only. Going down or taking a knee ends the fight. Let 'em work out the tension, but with very minimal chance of hurting anything.

macinjosh 4y ago
I am here for safe and supervised middle school duels. It would have helped me a lot. I went to a strict religious school and a kid who bullied me over years pushed me too far one day and I started after him, got maybe one kick to his leg in. Teachers stopped me immediately, but never did the same for the years of verbal abuse mocking me for my weight though. I ended up getting spanked by the principal with a thick wooden paddle in front of my teacher that day. This was the mid to late 90s. I heard once the kid who bullied me is in prison now.
- erdos4d 4y ago
  You should get the straight facts on that kid and what he did and confront the school over it. They obviously failed across the board with him and probably someone got hurt for him to get time. They could have done things to correct his behavior, instead they punished you for lashing out against his abuse. This needs to show up when people search that school so other parents know how they really are and avoid sending their kids there.
dpkirchner 4y ago
I wonder how many people would be still willing to fight if they were forced to delay for some amount of time (hours?). My hunch is it'd be very few, which would be a win.
ilaksh 4y ago
This is completely unrelated to the harassment, abuse and assaults labelled as "bullying".
bentley 4y ago
I was a peaceful kid and no good at gym class, which played some part in why I was bullied. What benefit would I have received from officially sanctioning my regular physical humiliation?
- TylerE 4y ago
  Well, for one it forces the school to scknowledge thst'd it's happening, which is at least half the battle. And of course both sides must agree, you can't be forced in to it.
  - XorNot 4y ago
    So let me just game out what happens: The bully comes up and shoves a kid around, doing some minor injuries. The bullied raises the matter to school authorities. Their solution is "would you like to fight the bully some more?" --- At what point did the victim want to get involved in this? The victim didn't instigate violence, the victim didn't want to participate in violence, the victim wants the violence to stop and to feel safe at school. And you propose to instead offer them "would you like to risk more bodily injury engaging in violence?"

anonym29 4y ago

Rough play is voluntary, being a victim of bullying isn't. I say this as someone who engaged in rough play, got bullied, and was a bully, at different times.

thegrimmest 4y ago
Learning how to respond to antisocial behaviour by a peer, and being able to resolve conflict independently, are two very important skills that it's critical to learn. Being seen as someone who needs adult help to resolve peer conflict is socially disastrous for young people. We do children no favours by intervening in this developmental process.
- david-gpu 4y ago
  > We do children no favours by intervening in this developmental process. Will you do the same when your child is being bullied? How do you think that may affect them and their relationship with you? How do you think a child feels when they realize that the adults around them do not have their back? What does it do to their sense of safety and their self-esteem? I have lived through this and have my personal take on these questions, but I'd love to learn about yours.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    Like with most things, I think the right move for an adult is to help the child solve the problem themselves, rather than do it for them. As other posts have mentioned, learning when and how to apply violence is a critical skill. We (particularly children) do not live in a post-violence society. Children should of course not feel abandoned by those closest to them, but being overprotective can have its own negative consequences for development. It's clearly a fine line to walk, but if you're being bullied then what you need is to learn how to address/discourage that behaviour - not an intervention. Otherwise all you're doing is deferring the learning experience until next time. Past a certain window it's very hard to learn this skill, and you can be stuck with a helpless mentality for your whole life.

mc32 4y ago

There is also "rough teasing" which isn't quite bullying --but can turn into bullying sometimes. It often calls for take but give. This typically can happen within your in-group.

ilaksh 4y ago

Humans have physical games with rules. "Bullying" is nothing like that.

agumonkey 4y ago

Depends, if it becomes chronic rough play you know something might be wrong. If you're close enough and can see that it's asymmetrical and the victim is always the same, someone should intervene.