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This reminds me that I should write down the experiences I remember as a child, including being chased over three miles by half a dozen kids. I finally crossed

This reminds me that I should write down the experiences I remember as a child, including being chased over three miles by half a dozen kids. I finally crossed into an older woman’s yard, she recognized what was happening and asked me inside. I’ll never forget the beautiful polar bear rug in her living room. She got her keys and drove me home. Lucky for me I sprouted between elementary and junior high, I also got meaner, and the problems stopped. I turned out okay but I’m sure it shaped me in various ways.

CalRobert 4y ago
I wish we could be honest with our kids that sometimes you need to be mean in order to not be destroyed by mean people.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  I consider people who aren’t honest with children about this to be bad people: They’re helping the abuse by lying to those children in their role as a trusted adult.
  - haswell 4y ago
    I hear what you’re saying, but I think it’s important to take a more nuanced viewpoint rather than reducing such parents to “bad people”. I think it’s fair to criticize such people, or point out why it’s a problematic approach, but many parents are just trying to do what they believe is the right thing, misguided though it may be. Education and correcting misconceptions is important, and applying a binary mindset to anyone who shields their kids in this way is not going to move the needle, nor is it likely a fair representation of these individuals.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      Everyone is trying to do what they think is right — you can read the pro-social statements of many dictators. I think teaching your kids not to defend themselves is obviously bad parenting — and the people who do that, to the result of their own children getting hurt, are bad people.
      - haswell 4y ago
        Is there a scenario where you would be willing to interpret such a parent’s pacifism as naivety? There are many extremely complex issues that do not have obviously right or wrong answers. Being bad at something is not the same as being a bad person. How would you describe the difference between a parent who actively abuses their kids and a parent who loves and provides for their kids, but fails in some area along the way? You’ve gone right back to a binary stance here.
        ShroudedNight 4y ago
        When the parent is externalizing the cost of their pacifism onto their child, they are engaging in moral failure.
      - CalRobert 4y ago
        To be fair some people are just trying to not have to deal with bullies because they're lazy. The "just ignore them" crowd for instance.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      If a parent were to ask a known pedophile to babysit you wouldn't blink at calling them bad people. It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents.
      - haswell 4y ago
        > It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. This is a deeply fallacious argument, and these are not equivalent things. You seem to be concluding that the only thing that matters is outcome, not intent. Comparing a parent who makes a well intentioned mistake with a parent who intentionally puts their child in the care of a predator is ridiculous. One of these parents may even be criminally liable for their actions. > If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents. It’s not a matter of comfort, but of effective communication and acknowledgment of nuance. Words have meaning, and boiling complex things down to hardline binary positions is rarely helpful. Yes, calling someone like this a bad parent is somewhat better than calling them a bad person, because the implications of the two accusations are drastically different. One implies a moral failing, while the other implies a lack of knowledge/understanding, which are two entirely different categories. I say somewhat, because these “bad parents” may still be doing almost everything right, and may not have been exposed to situations that would give them the wisdom to impart proper guidance to their kids on this particular topic. I know some truly lovely and sincere people who just aren’t very good at parenting yet. Every parent starts there. They know it, and they’re doing their best to learn and improve as they go. They grew up in sheltered environments and didn’t exactly have model parents to emulate. These are not bad people. A hacker who intentionally breaks a critical system in a hospital is a bad person. A freshly graduated sysadmin who causes an outage to the same system due to incompetence is not automatically a bad person. Both events may have similar outcomes, but to claim that the people involved belong in the same category is nonsensical.
        P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        I'm not reading all of that, sorry. If a parent isn't preparing children for life as an adult they're bad parents. I'm a bad basketball player and my intent has fuckall to do with that judgement.
- david422 4y ago
  This is a difficult lesson to learn and also can be a difficult lesson to act upon (unfortunately).
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    Unfortunately what I mostly learned is that money allows you to shield yourself to some extent. The true appeal of a "nice" neighbourhood isn't the fancy houses, it's that the police might care about you. The appeal of a private school (aside from hobnobbing with kids of rich parents) is that bullies can get kicked out of a private school much more easily than a public one.
- p0pcult 4y ago
  Similarly, to have a tolerant society, intolerance can't be tolerated.
  - p0pcult 4y ago
    For the downvoters: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
    - nathanasmith 4y ago
      If I were to guess the cause of the downvotes it might have been a reflexive action from seeing the numerous times the paradox of tolerance is brought up but then misapplied in a way that suits whatever poster's rhetorical purpose yet deviates significantly from Popper's definition. To be clear, I'm not saying you did that, just offering a possible explanation.
ilaksh 4y ago
This illustrates the core problem: victim blaming.
- evancox100 4y ago
  Where is any blame being assigned to anyone?
- solumunus 4y ago
  I think you're replying to the wrong comment.

CalRobert 4y ago

I wish we could be honest with our kids that sometimes you need to be mean in order to not be destroyed by mean people.

zmgsabst 4y ago
I consider people who aren’t honest with children about this to be bad people: They’re helping the abuse by lying to those children in their role as a trusted adult.
- haswell 4y ago
  I hear what you’re saying, but I think it’s important to take a more nuanced viewpoint rather than reducing such parents to “bad people”. I think it’s fair to criticize such people, or point out why it’s a problematic approach, but many parents are just trying to do what they believe is the right thing, misguided though it may be. Education and correcting misconceptions is important, and applying a binary mindset to anyone who shields their kids in this way is not going to move the needle, nor is it likely a fair representation of these individuals.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    Everyone is trying to do what they think is right — you can read the pro-social statements of many dictators. I think teaching your kids not to defend themselves is obviously bad parenting — and the people who do that, to the result of their own children getting hurt, are bad people.
    - haswell 4y ago
      Is there a scenario where you would be willing to interpret such a parent’s pacifism as naivety? There are many extremely complex issues that do not have obviously right or wrong answers. Being bad at something is not the same as being a bad person. How would you describe the difference between a parent who actively abuses their kids and a parent who loves and provides for their kids, but fails in some area along the way? You’ve gone right back to a binary stance here.
      - ShroudedNight 4y ago
        When the parent is externalizing the cost of their pacifism onto their child, they are engaging in moral failure.
    - CalRobert 4y ago
      To be fair some people are just trying to not have to deal with bullies because they're lazy. The "just ignore them" crowd for instance.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    If a parent were to ask a known pedophile to babysit you wouldn't blink at calling them bad people. It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents.
    - haswell 4y ago
      > It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. This is a deeply fallacious argument, and these are not equivalent things. You seem to be concluding that the only thing that matters is outcome, not intent. Comparing a parent who makes a well intentioned mistake with a parent who intentionally puts their child in the care of a predator is ridiculous. One of these parents may even be criminally liable for their actions. > If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents. It’s not a matter of comfort, but of effective communication and acknowledgment of nuance. Words have meaning, and boiling complex things down to hardline binary positions is rarely helpful. Yes, calling someone like this a bad parent is somewhat better than calling them a bad person, because the implications of the two accusations are drastically different. One implies a moral failing, while the other implies a lack of knowledge/understanding, which are two entirely different categories. I say somewhat, because these “bad parents” may still be doing almost everything right, and may not have been exposed to situations that would give them the wisdom to impart proper guidance to their kids on this particular topic. I know some truly lovely and sincere people who just aren’t very good at parenting yet. Every parent starts there. They know it, and they’re doing their best to learn and improve as they go. They grew up in sheltered environments and didn’t exactly have model parents to emulate. These are not bad people. A hacker who intentionally breaks a critical system in a hospital is a bad person. A freshly graduated sysadmin who causes an outage to the same system due to incompetence is not automatically a bad person. Both events may have similar outcomes, but to claim that the people involved belong in the same category is nonsensical.
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        I'm not reading all of that, sorry. If a parent isn't preparing children for life as an adult they're bad parents. I'm a bad basketball player and my intent has fuckall to do with that judgement.
david422 4y ago
This is a difficult lesson to learn and also can be a difficult lesson to act upon (unfortunately).
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Unfortunately what I mostly learned is that money allows you to shield yourself to some extent. The true appeal of a "nice" neighbourhood isn't the fancy houses, it's that the police might care about you. The appeal of a private school (aside from hobnobbing with kids of rich parents) is that bullies can get kicked out of a private school much more easily than a public one.
p0pcult 4y ago
Similarly, to have a tolerant society, intolerance can't be tolerated.
- p0pcult 4y ago
  For the downvoters: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
  - nathanasmith 4y ago
    If I were to guess the cause of the downvotes it might have been a reflexive action from seeing the numerous times the paradox of tolerance is brought up but then misapplied in a way that suits whatever poster's rhetorical purpose yet deviates significantly from Popper's definition. To be clear, I'm not saying you did that, just offering a possible explanation.

ilaksh 4y ago

This illustrates the core problem: victim blaming.

evancox100 4y ago
Where is any blame being assigned to anyone?
solumunus 4y ago
I think you're replying to the wrong comment.