3 ms·

Well spotted. In other words, WebRTC lets a site owner have their visitors distribute content directly to others without their knowledge or consent, basically m

by klabb3 4y ago

Well spotted. In other words, WebRTC lets a site owner have their visitors distribute content directly to others without their knowledge or consent, basically making it impossible to argue that the distributor has intent to do so in the general case. That said, it was already highly questionable for legal application, since a torrent client can run on any machine connected to a home wifi, including guests and compromised machines. It may have been enough for a "hey, you're breaking our tos, please check your devices" from the ISP, but should never have been more than that (like threatening letters from rights-holders).

_def 4y ago
I totally agree, that's how it should be. In reality right now there are countries in which you get cease and desist letters and a ~800 Euro fine for even a short amount of seeding. This is a cool technology but also allows more automation in this shady industry and laws will take years and years to follow up.
- 6510 4y ago
  clicking a link wouldn't count, I mean, what link? oh, now you are seeding too?
googlryas 4y ago
Along those lines, Comcast/Xfinity for example has a defaultish setting on their routers to leave an open guest network available. If I connect to my neighbors guest network and download game of thrones, will my neighbor get the nastygram, or is it smart enough to know it is a guest network? Should I connect to my own guest network (not that I have it enabled) if I want to do illegal things?
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  The xfinitywifi network requires you log your device into a Comcast account. It's not strictly a "guest network" for arbitrary devices, it's more of a roaming access to your own account. Pretty sure they can nail you even harder for piracy on this than on your own network where it might be someone else's device.
  - throwaway82028 4y ago
    Not only does it require login, but it is not like they are giving you full bandwidth. Good luck to anyone trying to do a lot of high-bandwidth downloads over an Xfinity guest network.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Every one I've ever connected to gave you free access for a new account for some limited period of time. But that was like 5+ years ago so maybe they've changed it.
- lxgr 4y ago
  Usually, these CPE guest networks have their traffic routed via an IP different from the main customer one, and have their own bandwidth/QoS class as well.
TylerE 4y ago
Intent isn’t always nessesary for a conviction. Child porn comes instantly to mind.
- zuminator 4y ago
  Intent is a necessary element for that charge, at least on the US Federal level. But in any case, completely accidental possession is a defense, meaning, if you have something in your possession without even knowing that it's in your possession, that can be presented as a defense to charges. That would likely be the same when it comes to being an unwitting distributor of copyrighted material via a stealth torrent. Similarly we don't prosecute individuals whose computers are infected with viruses that propagate (and thus illegally access and trespass onto other systems) without the person's knowledge.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    In theory, sure. But I’ve read enough horror stories. The reputational damage of even being charged is immense.
mahathu 4y ago
Do countries other than Germany also have dedicated, famous [1] legal agencies sending out cease and desist letters and suing for damages (~900€) as soon as you accidentally seed a compromised torrent for even a few seconds? [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frommer_Legal https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frommer_Legal
- bdhcuidbebe 4y ago
  In Sweden that happened for a year, then it stopped. Just refuse to pay abd deny all.
- autoexec 4y ago
  In the US the ESA RIAA and MPA hire out several different third parties (some of which they have very close ties with) to do that kind of work on their behalf. They include companies like Rightscorp, Vobile, OpSec, or PML Process Management Mostly they just threaten people with lawsuits in order to get settlement money from folks who may even be fully innocent, but who cannot afford to fight against an international media empire in court. Lawsuits against random users are less common than they were, but still happen. The bigger issue is that the media industry has been pressuring ISPs to permanently disconnect users after nothing more than repeated unproven accusations of copyright infringement. ISPs who fail to close these accounts risk being fined billions of dollars, so anyone in the US who has been getting DMCA notices from their ISP should take steps to prevent that or else they're risking getting disconnected which is a problem for those without many options for high speed internet access. Permanently cutting people off from the internet over nothing but accusations seems very extreme, but the media industry has already taken several ISPs to court for not doing it and so far they are winning.
BlueTemplar 4y ago
That's why for a decade already the law around here punishes you not so much for seeding, but specifically for failing to secure your Internet connection to prevent seeding (regardless of who actually seeded).

by klabb3 4y ago

_def 4y ago

I totally agree, that's how it should be. In reality right now there are countries in which you get cease and desist letters and a ~800 Euro fine for even a short amount of seeding. This is a cool technology but also allows more automation in this shady industry and laws will take years and years to follow up.

6510 4y ago
clicking a link wouldn't count, I mean, what link? oh, now you are seeding too?

googlryas 4y ago

Along those lines, Comcast/Xfinity for example has a defaultish setting on their routers to leave an open guest network available. If I connect to my neighbors guest network and download game of thrones, will my neighbor get the nastygram, or is it smart enough to know it is a guest network? Should I connect to my own guest network (not that I have it enabled) if I want to do illegal things?

ocdtrekkie 4y ago
The xfinitywifi network requires you log your device into a Comcast account. It's not strictly a "guest network" for arbitrary devices, it's more of a roaming access to your own account. Pretty sure they can nail you even harder for piracy on this than on your own network where it might be someone else's device.
- throwaway82028 4y ago
  Not only does it require login, but it is not like they are giving you full bandwidth. Good luck to anyone trying to do a lot of high-bandwidth downloads over an Xfinity guest network.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Every one I've ever connected to gave you free access for a new account for some limited period of time. But that was like 5+ years ago so maybe they've changed it.
lxgr 4y ago
Usually, these CPE guest networks have their traffic routed via an IP different from the main customer one, and have their own bandwidth/QoS class as well.

TylerE 4y ago

Intent isn’t always nessesary for a conviction. Child porn comes instantly to mind.

zuminator 4y ago
Intent is a necessary element for that charge, at least on the US Federal level. But in any case, completely accidental possession is a defense, meaning, if you have something in your possession without even knowing that it's in your possession, that can be presented as a defense to charges. That would likely be the same when it comes to being an unwitting distributor of copyrighted material via a stealth torrent. Similarly we don't prosecute individuals whose computers are infected with viruses that propagate (and thus illegally access and trespass onto other systems) without the person's knowledge.
- TylerE 4y ago
  In theory, sure. But I’ve read enough horror stories. The reputational damage of even being charged is immense.

mahathu 4y ago

Do countries other than Germany also have dedicated, famous [1] legal agencies sending out cease and desist letters and suing for damages (~900€) as soon as you accidentally seed a compromised torrent for even a few seconds? [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frommer_Legal https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frommer_Legal

bdhcuidbebe 4y ago
In Sweden that happened for a year, then it stopped. Just refuse to pay abd deny all.
autoexec 4y ago
In the US the ESA RIAA and MPA hire out several different third parties (some of which they have very close ties with) to do that kind of work on their behalf. They include companies like Rightscorp, Vobile, OpSec, or PML Process Management Mostly they just threaten people with lawsuits in order to get settlement money from folks who may even be fully innocent, but who cannot afford to fight against an international media empire in court. Lawsuits against random users are less common than they were, but still happen. The bigger issue is that the media industry has been pressuring ISPs to permanently disconnect users after nothing more than repeated unproven accusations of copyright infringement. ISPs who fail to close these accounts risk being fined billions of dollars, so anyone in the US who has been getting DMCA notices from their ISP should take steps to prevent that or else they're risking getting disconnected which is a problem for those without many options for high speed internet access. Permanently cutting people off from the internet over nothing but accusations seems very extreme, but the media industry has already taken several ISPs to court for not doing it and so far they are winning.

BlueTemplar 4y ago

That's why for a decade already the law around here punishes you not so much for seeding, but specifically for failing to secure your Internet connection to prevent seeding (regardless of who actually seeded).