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If you're talking about HATEOAS (which many zealots equate one to one with REST) you may be pleased to know there is no reference to it whatsoever in this artic

by beachy 4y ago

If you're talking about HATEOAS (which many zealots equate one to one with REST) you may be pleased to know there is no reference to it whatsoever in this article.

morelisp 4y ago
> zealots REST is defined by four interface constraints: identification of resources; manipulation of resources through representations; self-descriptive messages; and, hypermedia as the engine of application state.
kreetx 4y ago
Or is it the other way around? I seem to remember that Roy Fielding did actually mean HATEOAS when saying REST, that REST isn't only CRUD but a discoverable and self-describing API. EDIT: And the corollary of above is that most people when saying REST actually mean HTTP with correct method use. If not, then is there a good source on what you mean by REST and HATEOAS?
- morelisp 4y ago
  A lot of people confuse HATEOAS, the idea, with HAL, some attempt to standardize it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tasuki 4y ago
Perhaps I'm a zealot: HATEOAS is one required part of REST as per Roy Fielding, who came up with both. What does "REST" mean to you?
- criddell 4y ago
  It seems like when taken to an extreme, strong HATEOAS would mean you could write a universal client that works across all APIs. I don't think service developers take HATEOAS super-seriously. From what I've seen, returning resources with a URI rather than an identifier is about all many services do to be HATEOAS-ish. Clients are coupled to the server, but that's often okay.
  - discreteevent 4y ago
    > strong HATEOAS would mean you could write a universal client that works across all APIs. It would be hard not to make that client behave like a browser from the user's point of view.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      Exactly. HATEOAS implies as much flexibility as a browser, and as much understanding of the server data as a browser. So if you want a HATEOAS API, just make it output HTML and go with the crowd.
  - steve-chavez 4y ago
    > It seems like when taken to an extreme, strong HATEOAS would mean you could write a universal client that works across all APIs. And if you go with HAL or JSON-LD, you have to use a specific clients for those formats, so not universal anyway. I tend to agree with "HATEOAS is for Humans"[1], HATEOAS makes sense when interacting with HTML. [1]: https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.h...
- beachy 4y ago
  "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." To me, like most people, REST means an http-based API where we use GET, POST, PUT, DELETE etc. to interact with resources. This in full understanding that under a literal interpretation of the enlightened one's (Roy Fielding's) utterances, REST mandates HATEOAS, meaning that there are only a few true REST APIs to be seen in the wild. I also usually use the term RESTful, this seems to be a somewhat widely accepted middleground.
  - tasuki 4y ago
    Fair!
  - asalahli 4y ago
    But that makes it hard to refer to, search for or have a discussion about real REST, the architectural style. Why use a term that means a different thing when you can just invent/use a new term describing what you want to describe. REST, as Roy Fielding defined it, is an extremely interesting concept to me and I'd love to explore it more, but good luck doing any research on it without getting flooded with countless junk about "REST" or "RESTful" APIs. Sort of like how youtube is filled with videos about "damascus steel" which is nothing more than steel of random, irrelevant composition with certain visual pattern akin to actual damascus steel. But again, good luck finding a video about the real deal. Same can be said about ASMR, and many other misappropriated terms people throw around for clickbait. Rant over.

by beachy 4y ago

If you're talking about HATEOAS (which many zealots equate one to one with REST) you may be pleased to know there is no reference to it whatsoever in this article.

morelisp 4y ago

> zealots REST is defined by four interface constraints: identification of resources; manipulation of resources through representations; self-descriptive messages; and, hypermedia as the engine of application state.

kreetx 4y ago

Or is it the other way around? I seem to remember that Roy Fielding did actually mean HATEOAS when saying REST, that REST isn't only CRUD but a discoverable and self-describing API. EDIT: And the corollary of above is that most people when saying REST actually mean HTTP with correct method use. If not, then is there a good source on what you mean by REST and HATEOAS?

morelisp 4y ago
A lot of people confuse HATEOAS, the idea, with HAL, some attempt to standardize it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tasuki 4y ago

Perhaps I'm a zealot: HATEOAS is one required part of REST as per Roy Fielding, who came up with both. What does "REST" mean to you?

criddell 4y ago
It seems like when taken to an extreme, strong HATEOAS would mean you could write a universal client that works across all APIs. I don't think service developers take HATEOAS super-seriously. From what I've seen, returning resources with a URI rather than an identifier is about all many services do to be HATEOAS-ish. Clients are coupled to the server, but that's often okay.
- discreteevent 4y ago
  > strong HATEOAS would mean you could write a universal client that works across all APIs. It would be hard not to make that client behave like a browser from the user's point of view.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Exactly. HATEOAS implies as much flexibility as a browser, and as much understanding of the server data as a browser. So if you want a HATEOAS API, just make it output HTML and go with the crowd.
- steve-chavez 4y ago
  > It seems like when taken to an extreme, strong HATEOAS would mean you could write a universal client that works across all APIs. And if you go with HAL or JSON-LD, you have to use a specific clients for those formats, so not universal anyway. I tend to agree with "HATEOAS is for Humans"[1], HATEOAS makes sense when interacting with HTML. [1]: https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.html https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.h...
beachy 4y ago
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." To me, like most people, REST means an http-based API where we use GET, POST, PUT, DELETE etc. to interact with resources. This in full understanding that under a literal interpretation of the enlightened one's (Roy Fielding's) utterances, REST mandates HATEOAS, meaning that there are only a few true REST APIs to be seen in the wild. I also usually use the term RESTful, this seems to be a somewhat widely accepted middleground.
- tasuki 4y ago
  Fair!
- asalahli 4y ago
  But that makes it hard to refer to, search for or have a discussion about real REST, the architectural style. Why use a term that means a different thing when you can just invent/use a new term describing what you want to describe. REST, as Roy Fielding defined it, is an extremely interesting concept to me and I'd love to explore it more, but good luck doing any research on it without getting flooded with countless junk about "REST" or "RESTful" APIs. Sort of like how youtube is filled with videos about "damascus steel" which is nothing more than steel of random, irrelevant composition with certain visual pattern akin to actual damascus steel. But again, good luck finding a video about the real deal. Same can be said about ASMR, and many other misappropriated terms people throw around for clickbait. Rant over.