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The question is: If you model a coin toss, where does the randomness stem from? In a computational model without artificial randomness, you should get perfectly

The question is: If you model a coin toss, where does the randomness stem from? In a computational model without artificial randomness, you should get perfectly repeatable results, no?

willcipriano 4y ago
If you are God and you make a universe that contains a people that you also created and they flip coins, where does the randomness come from?
- throwup 4y ago
  Quantum effects, of course!
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  From a cryptographically strong PRNG never reseeded that I would use in every kind of calculation, wharever proximity in any property. That will keep anybody trying to understand things on their toes. (Note: make sure to give them toes.)
- MiddleEndian 4y ago
  Perhaps those coinflips would not be random from the perspective of an all-knowing all-calculating god, similar to knowing the seed of an RNG algorithm and getting the same value each time when you rerun the program.
- replygirl 4y ago
  there are different takes on the nature and extent of divine determinism. my theology says god created a system (vs. a sequence of events) and intervenes regularly but not always. part of what god created is natural agency, after all, and in this light "everything that happens is meant to happen" is not synonymous with "everything that happens is distinctly willed by god". my understanding is that god is committed to that agency with such intensity that his position (seeing, knowing, and feeling all) compels him to feel sorrow when he knows both that he can end all suffering and that it wouldn't be fair to. accordingly, he likely doesn't see much value in directly controlling most coin flips
nathan_compton 4y ago
Different initial conditions. Presumably the initial velocity and angular momentum are randomized.
stavros 4y ago
Yes, if there isn't randomness, it'll be deterministic.
tshaddox 4y ago
I think it's more about chaos: a deterministic system where the outcome is extremely sensitive to the initial conditions. Actual coin tosses function reasonably well as random variables because most humans cannot control or measure the initial conditions of the toss well enough to determine the outcome before observing it. A computer model using a deterministic physics system would be completely aware of the initial conditions of each toss. You'd presumably want to introduce some randomness in those initial conditions (using e.g. a pseudorandom number generator) to simulate human coin tosses.
fedeb95 4y ago
It doesn't model a coin toss, but a coin landing. It's written in the article. Afaik a complete coin toss is very hard if not impossible (?) to model.

The question is: If you model a coin toss, where does the randomness stem from? In a computational model without artificial randomness, you should get perfectly repeatable results, no?

willcipriano 4y ago

If you are God and you make a universe that contains a people that you also created and they flip coins, where does the randomness come from?

throwup 4y ago
Quantum effects, of course!
marcosdumay 4y ago
From a cryptographically strong PRNG never reseeded that I would use in every kind of calculation, wharever proximity in any property. That will keep anybody trying to understand things on their toes. (Note: make sure to give them toes.)
MiddleEndian 4y ago
Perhaps those coinflips would not be random from the perspective of an all-knowing all-calculating god, similar to knowing the seed of an RNG algorithm and getting the same value each time when you rerun the program.
replygirl 4y ago
there are different takes on the nature and extent of divine determinism. my theology says god created a system (vs. a sequence of events) and intervenes regularly but not always. part of what god created is natural agency, after all, and in this light "everything that happens is meant to happen" is not synonymous with "everything that happens is distinctly willed by god". my understanding is that god is committed to that agency with such intensity that his position (seeing, knowing, and feeling all) compels him to feel sorrow when he knows both that he can end all suffering and that it wouldn't be fair to. accordingly, he likely doesn't see much value in directly controlling most coin flips

nathan_compton 4y ago

Different initial conditions. Presumably the initial velocity and angular momentum are randomized.

stavros 4y ago

Yes, if there isn't randomness, it'll be deterministic.

tshaddox 4y ago

I think it's more about chaos: a deterministic system where the outcome is extremely sensitive to the initial conditions. Actual coin tosses function reasonably well as random variables because most humans cannot control or measure the initial conditions of the toss well enough to determine the outcome before observing it. A computer model using a deterministic physics system would be completely aware of the initial conditions of each toss. You'd presumably want to introduce some randomness in those initial conditions (using e.g. a pseudorandom number generator) to simulate human coin tosses.

fedeb95 4y ago

It doesn't model a coin toss, but a coin landing. It's written in the article. Afaik a complete coin toss is very hard if not impossible (?) to model.