4 ms·

we aren't talking about "copyright litigation today", we're hypothesising about how deeply disrupted the current arrangement could be by ai content generation

by exit 4y ago

we aren't talking about "copyright litigation today", we're hypothesising about how deeply disrupted the current arrangement could be by ai content generation in particular, the argument that "ai generated works is not copyrightable" in support of it being untenable to use it for business purposes is challenged by the observation that "we won't be able to tell where it came from anyway"

trention 4y ago
>we won't be able to tell whether where it came from anyway You won't be able to if you look solely at the output. There are ways to check audit and verify the process by which said output was produced. They are also gamable but the cost of gaming them is not insignificant.
- exit 4y ago
  > You won't be able to if you look solely at the output. i think this is the scenario in question, if someone is lying about the source of an image > There are ways to check audit and verify the process by which said output was produced. They are also gamable but the cost of gaming them is not insignificant. this is interesting to know about. do you have some zero knowledge proof arrangement in mind here?
freejazz 4y ago
As I already explained to you, which you did not seem to appreciate, this is not already not a problem in copyright litigation because if your defense is "it's generated by AI" then it is your burden to establish that convincingly. You can't just say "well, you can't prove that I didn't copy it", it will not be convincing to a judge or jury. The plaintiff will make allegations that the defense will have to rebut. Saying "it's hard to tell where it came from" doesn't rebut copying.
- exit 4y ago
  we're definitely talking past each other at some point here (i didn't propose a defense of "it's generated by AI" for example) - i've worked for a company which acquired its art content from a foreign outsourcing business. - the foreign outsourcing business of course hired human artists, albeit at much lower wages than is possible where the company i worked for was located. - the company i worked for launched a product containing this art content and never encountered a copyright challenge. if AI eventually produces content indistinguishable from what humans can produce, what prevents these foreign outsourcing businesses from quietly pretending they still hire humans? the true origin of the content can be trivially "laundered".
  - freejazz 4y ago
    I'm aware you didn't "propose" it as a defense, but that's how it would work in a litigation. >if AI eventually produces content indistinguishable from what humans can produce, what prevents these foreign outsourcing businesses from quietly pretending they still hire humans? The fact that they don't and if it is discovered, it will mean all of the work generated by them is not copyrightable and therefore everyone is free to copy it. They'd also have to lie to the copyright office and the businesses they were selling their services. The only thing doing the work here is the lie. Right now I can go to another place and find another photographer who will recreate something for less. Technology might make that more trivial, but it doesn't change the fact that as a business opportunity it'd only work by having to massively misrepresent oneself. Ostensibly, if I was a business and I was contracting these kinds of services, one thing guaranteed to be in the contract would be a clause that they authored the works, obtained the copyrights, etc, lawfully. And generally in a contract they would represent what the business represents (we are an illustration shop that sells images that we authored... etc). So to more specifically answer your question - "what would stop them?" the same exact repercussions as would right now (which is what I intended to make clear in my initial response to you).
    - exit 4y ago
      > The fact that they don't and if it is discovered, it will mean all of the work generated by them is not copyrightable and therefore everyone is free to copy it. They'd also have to lie to the copyright office and the businesses they were selling their services. The only thing doing the work here is the lie. you and i have extremely different impressions of how effective regulatory repercussions are at actually constraining behaviour. circumventing laws and regulations really does do a lot of the work in the economy. vast amounts of plagiarised code run in software we touch every day. artistic work gets crudely lifted. i don't see something as powerful as ai content generation being constrained by dictums about what can be copyrighted.

by exit 4y ago

trention 4y ago

>we won't be able to tell whether where it came from anyway You won't be able to if you look solely at the output. There are ways to check audit and verify the process by which said output was produced. They are also gamable but the cost of gaming them is not insignificant.

exit 4y ago
> You won't be able to if you look solely at the output. i think this is the scenario in question, if someone is lying about the source of an image > There are ways to check audit and verify the process by which said output was produced. They are also gamable but the cost of gaming them is not insignificant. this is interesting to know about. do you have some zero knowledge proof arrangement in mind here?

freejazz 4y ago

As I already explained to you, which you did not seem to appreciate, this is not already not a problem in copyright litigation because if your defense is "it's generated by AI" then it is your burden to establish that convincingly. You can't just say "well, you can't prove that I didn't copy it", it will not be convincing to a judge or jury. The plaintiff will make allegations that the defense will have to rebut. Saying "it's hard to tell where it came from" doesn't rebut copying.

exit 4y ago
we're definitely talking past each other at some point here (i didn't propose a defense of "it's generated by AI" for example) - i've worked for a company which acquired its art content from a foreign outsourcing business. - the foreign outsourcing business of course hired human artists, albeit at much lower wages than is possible where the company i worked for was located. - the company i worked for launched a product containing this art content and never encountered a copyright challenge. if AI eventually produces content indistinguishable from what humans can produce, what prevents these foreign outsourcing businesses from quietly pretending they still hire humans? the true origin of the content can be trivially "laundered".
- freejazz 4y ago
  I'm aware you didn't "propose" it as a defense, but that's how it would work in a litigation. >if AI eventually produces content indistinguishable from what humans can produce, what prevents these foreign outsourcing businesses from quietly pretending they still hire humans? The fact that they don't and if it is discovered, it will mean all of the work generated by them is not copyrightable and therefore everyone is free to copy it. They'd also have to lie to the copyright office and the businesses they were selling their services. The only thing doing the work here is the lie. Right now I can go to another place and find another photographer who will recreate something for less. Technology might make that more trivial, but it doesn't change the fact that as a business opportunity it'd only work by having to massively misrepresent oneself. Ostensibly, if I was a business and I was contracting these kinds of services, one thing guaranteed to be in the contract would be a clause that they authored the works, obtained the copyrights, etc, lawfully. And generally in a contract they would represent what the business represents (we are an illustration shop that sells images that we authored... etc). So to more specifically answer your question - "what would stop them?" the same exact repercussions as would right now (which is what I intended to make clear in my initial response to you).
  - exit 4y ago
    > The fact that they don't and if it is discovered, it will mean all of the work generated by them is not copyrightable and therefore everyone is free to copy it. They'd also have to lie to the copyright office and the businesses they were selling their services. The only thing doing the work here is the lie. you and i have extremely different impressions of how effective regulatory repercussions are at actually constraining behaviour. circumventing laws and regulations really does do a lot of the work in the economy. vast amounts of plagiarised code run in software we touch every day. artistic work gets crudely lifted. i don't see something as powerful as ai content generation being constrained by dictums about what can be copyrighted.