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> We have effectively socialized old age care, and now we are expecting future generations, an ever-shrinking group, to pay for the pensions of people they have

> We have effectively socialized old age care, and now we are expecting future generations, an ever-shrinking group, to pay for the pensions of people they have never met. In some form or fashion, this is how things have always worked. The young take care of the old. It's not really a problem, so long as you have enough young folks around. I think your first paragraph is right--modern culture is failing at giving humans the connection they need. That's the real problem we need to figure out. Taking care of old people is just always going to be A Thing We Have To Do until we all get issued a robot or whatever.

aliqot 4y ago
We're also perpetuating values like fierce independence. This has an effect as everyone is focused on me-me-me rather than finding a mate. To this style of rhetoric, finding a mate is succumbing to the status quo, and surrendering to common relationship ideals.
- thechao 4y ago
  Isn't this a self-correcting phenomenon in the long-run?
- falcolas 4y ago
  Seeking a mate or procreation with the goal of having someone to help you in old age is just as, no, more selfish than being independent.
  - worthless-trash 4y ago
    Rarely are goals so one dimensional, there are costs in having and raising children, the benefit of company and family flows both ways.
  - slowmovintarget 4y ago
    Being independent is the opposite of selfish. Seeking a mate and raising children used to be considered a duty to society, where, as a side-effect, and not the main intent, you got assistance in old age, and provided assistance to your children in raising theirs. You're right that seeking the side-effect is wrong-headed and selfish.
- snoot 4y ago
  > We're also perpetuating values like fierce independence. I keep seeing this said, but I don’t see it. What are the examples?
  - tsol 4y ago
    Well for one, I think it's the first time that "It's better to die alone than to settle for someone who isn't ideal' is commonly agreed with. People feel they shouldn't waste their time, they will only sacrifice for a relationship with someone amazing. There was once a time this was seen as selfish. It still is in a lot of places, in fact.
    - snoot 4y ago
      Interesting. I’ve never heard anyone say anything like that, let alone agree it. That said, it’s unclear why either view would be seen as ‘selfish’.
      - worthless-trash 4y ago
        Selfish: lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure. It could be construed that you waste your possible partners time along the way, till you find the imperfection that ends your relationship.
        snoot 4y ago
        Construing it that way is just flawed logic. It presupposes that a person goes into a relationship looking for such an imperfection. This is the fallacy of affirming the consequent.
        worthless-trash 4y ago
        No, you have flawed logic ;) you're expecting logic from people.. ? If you into a relationship expecting perfection, you will always be sadly mistaken as people are imperfect. Entering the relationship contract this way is "bad faith" but not unheard of. I'm glad that you've never had to deal with it, but in reality it happens.
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  The last two decades have aimed at perpetuating dependence and collectivism, not independence. Part of that is emphasis on feelings, feeling good, aiming for self-fulfillment, claiming one's entitlements, and resenting achievements of others. Destruction of the nuclear family is one of the intents. The side-effect is people being old and alone. Being married, becoming a "breeder" is offensive and oppressive (again, collectivist rhetoric, not the rhetoric of independence), because it "perpetuates the patriarchy" or "it continues systemic racism" or "advances white European values and disenfranchises minorities." You'll find all of this out there, and not a lick of it is advocating independence. Quite the opposite.
api 4y ago
Modern culture makes it easier than ever for people to reach each other but it also makes it easy for people to isolate and live alone. Quite a few people seem to choose the latter even though it usually makes people less happy and less fulfilled. Or… does it? I know more than one person who lives alone because they got too tired of drama. I don’t live alone but have a pretty good relationship with my SO. If I had a bad one and could not repair it, living alone may be preferable.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > easier than ever for people to reach each other it is easier to reach each other only if you have a bond with them. I can video call my family with a few taps. But it is harder to make those bonds in the first place.
RestlessMind 4y ago
> In some form or fashion, this is how things have always worked. The young take care of the old The young take care of the old in their own communities, where the said old have spent a lot of energy and resources bringing up those young. FTFY.
- whynotminot 4y ago
  Genuinely what difference does it make? Is it simply “I won’t help those olds—I don’t know them.” How very evolved of you.

aliqot 4y ago

We're also perpetuating values like fierce independence. This has an effect as everyone is focused on me-me-me rather than finding a mate. To this style of rhetoric, finding a mate is succumbing to the status quo, and surrendering to common relationship ideals.

thechao 4y ago
Isn't this a self-correcting phenomenon in the long-run?
falcolas 4y ago
Seeking a mate or procreation with the goal of having someone to help you in old age is just as, no, more selfish than being independent.
- worthless-trash 4y ago
  Rarely are goals so one dimensional, there are costs in having and raising children, the benefit of company and family flows both ways.
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  Being independent is the opposite of selfish. Seeking a mate and raising children used to be considered a duty to society, where, as a side-effect, and not the main intent, you got assistance in old age, and provided assistance to your children in raising theirs. You're right that seeking the side-effect is wrong-headed and selfish.
snoot 4y ago
> We're also perpetuating values like fierce independence. I keep seeing this said, but I don’t see it. What are the examples?
- tsol 4y ago
  Well for one, I think it's the first time that "It's better to die alone than to settle for someone who isn't ideal' is commonly agreed with. People feel they shouldn't waste their time, they will only sacrifice for a relationship with someone amazing. There was once a time this was seen as selfish. It still is in a lot of places, in fact.
  - snoot 4y ago
    Interesting. I’ve never heard anyone say anything like that, let alone agree it. That said, it’s unclear why either view would be seen as ‘selfish’.
    - worthless-trash 4y ago
      Selfish: lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure. It could be construed that you waste your possible partners time along the way, till you find the imperfection that ends your relationship.
      - snoot 4y ago
        Construing it that way is just flawed logic. It presupposes that a person goes into a relationship looking for such an imperfection. This is the fallacy of affirming the consequent.
        worthless-trash 4y ago
        No, you have flawed logic ;) you're expecting logic from people.. ? If you into a relationship expecting perfection, you will always be sadly mistaken as people are imperfect. Entering the relationship contract this way is "bad faith" but not unheard of. I'm glad that you've never had to deal with it, but in reality it happens.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
The last two decades have aimed at perpetuating dependence and collectivism, not independence. Part of that is emphasis on feelings, feeling good, aiming for self-fulfillment, claiming one's entitlements, and resenting achievements of others. Destruction of the nuclear family is one of the intents. The side-effect is people being old and alone. Being married, becoming a "breeder" is offensive and oppressive (again, collectivist rhetoric, not the rhetoric of independence), because it "perpetuates the patriarchy" or "it continues systemic racism" or "advances white European values and disenfranchises minorities." You'll find all of this out there, and not a lick of it is advocating independence. Quite the opposite.

api 4y ago

Modern culture makes it easier than ever for people to reach each other but it also makes it easy for people to isolate and live alone. Quite a few people seem to choose the latter even though it usually makes people less happy and less fulfilled. Or… does it? I know more than one person who lives alone because they got too tired of drama. I don’t live alone but have a pretty good relationship with my SO. If I had a bad one and could not repair it, living alone may be preferable.

RestlessMind 4y ago
> easier than ever for people to reach each other it is easier to reach each other only if you have a bond with them. I can video call my family with a few taps. But it is harder to make those bonds in the first place.

RestlessMind 4y ago

> In some form or fashion, this is how things have always worked. The young take care of the old The young take care of the old in their own communities, where the said old have spent a lot of energy and resources bringing up those young. FTFY.

whynotminot 4y ago
Genuinely what difference does it make? Is it simply “I won’t help those olds—I don’t know them.” How very evolved of you.