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Apart from the sexual acts I think culture is important. If you don't fit in culturally then you should yourself quit. Don't just stay there and be a stain on t

Apart from the sexual acts I think culture is important. If you don't fit in culturally then you should yourself quit. Don't just stay there and be a stain on the team. Like someone shouldn't be obligated to stay after work to do "fun" stuff. But they shouldn't be constantly avoiding it and obviously not fit in at all with the company. It's a fuzzy line that's hard to define, so I think the law is correct here in terms of drawing a line rather then keeping something ambiguous and fuzzy. But if we go beyond the law and look at it from a practical standpoint, this guy likely didn't fit in and likely wasn't a good team member in terms of getting along with people. The laws say that work is just a job and if you do the work then you're good and that is the definition of the job, but it's often more then that. Your joining a team, a tribe a culture and sometimes many companies are looking for such a person. Maybe they should list having fun in the job description. That we expect someone to have fun with us, be part of the culture and come to our parties and stuff like that. That would be a fair deal. I've been on teams where this stuff is important and on those teams they definitely didn't want a person who just came to work for a paycheck and left asap. There are however tons of jobs where all they care about is your work and absolutely nothing else and I feel this guy should just look for that sort of job rather then trying to forcefully embed himself into a culture where he doesn't fit.

skor 4y ago
you’re paid to do your job. Being part of your job falls in the _doing the job_. What’s not on the contract is obviously not part of it. Doing hard drugs, as is alcohol, is not part of any legal contract. My personal preference is to withdraw from any circumstances that include using hard drugs like alcohol with anyone you do serious work with. .. in fuzzy situations have a beer and make an excuse, it always works out better.
- deltaseventhree 4y ago
  It's more then that for certain companies and teams. If that's what you want join the team where you _only do the job_. Don't join the team that demands more social bonding and friendship. This guy joined a team where he obviously didn't fit in. Case in point. In japan the outside of work stuff is a requirement for every job. You literally need to hang out with the entire team after work. This is the opposite extreme. What I'm advocating for is _join a team that fits_. Don't fucking insist that you're _doing the job_ on a team that obviously wants more.
  - a_techwriter_00 4y ago
    I assume "this job takes team bonding so seriously that when the boss tells you to get drunk with him or get in bed with another random employee, that's just part of the job, so don't work here if you're not cool with it" is always on the job description or at least disclosed up-front in a job interview so that everyone can make an informed decision about whether or not they're a good culture fit, right?
    - deltaseventhree 4y ago
      You assume correct. Obviously this stuff can't be written down in the description but it is still the employers responsibility to IMPLY that this debauchery is expected as part of team bonding. I would say the employer is at fault here for not making this obvious. BUT, firing the employee was correct. He didn't fit in, and HAD he known this, he shouldn't have joined. Staying at the job WHILE knowing this is something that he shouldn't have done. He should have looked for another job and left as well. Quitting or getting fired is the inevitable outcome here.
      - coldtea 4y ago
        >You assume correct. Obviously this stuff can't be written down in the description but it is still the employers responsibility to IMPLY that this debauchery is expected as part of team bonding. If one is so open about it, like about firing employees for not drinking like the boss likes, can they post the details of the company you work at or run? Should be no big deal, right? It's an acceptable social thing, and not sociopathic madness, so should bring no ill consequences if it's made public...
        deltasevenseven 4y ago
        Yeah I work for google. Let me reword my sentence a bit because I left some things implied but a lot of people didn't pick up on it. It should be an expectation put FORTH in the JOB DESCRIPTION before the employee is hired. It is a reasonable expectation, PROVIDED the employee knew about the expectation BEFORE he is hired. If he didn't know about it, and the expectation was sprung on him, then it is UNFAIR.
- deltaseventhree 4y ago
  You made edits, so I will address those: >Doing hard drugs, as is alcohol, is not part of any legal contract. Right but there's more to life then legal contracts. Many companies want a very close knit team. Part of this closeness comes from participating in extracurricular activities. Look beyond the legalities. If a team expects this and you know you don't want to provide this to the team, THEN why are you choosing to work for them? Why are you insisting on using the law to protect your employment for a company that obviously doesn't want you? Join the team that works for you. If you withdraw from all hard drugs, JOIN the company that doesn't HAVE that culture or leaves that CULTURE as OPTIONAL. For this guy in the article he joined a team that wasn't a good fit for him. Him getting fired was correct, he never fitted in. But I will say what's likely unfair is that the "fun" part should've been part of the job description. They should've put it in there, not explicitly but implied it such that this guy knew what he was getting into.
  - skor 4y ago
    jumping into a fire or out of a plane is not on the contract but can be part of a “team building” activity. That is what i’m pointing out. > Look beyond the legalities haha, yeah thats the part that I want everyone to focus on in this debate.
    - deltaseventhree 4y ago
      > jumping into a fire or out of a plane is not on the contract but can be part of a “team building” activity. That is what i’m pointing out. There's a concept of common sense. With common sense we can easily rule out jumping off of planes and into fires without getting pedantic or technical. Let's use some of this sense when talking so things don't get overly technical. >haha, yeah thats the part that I want everyone to focus on in this debate. Do we let laws define what's right and wrong? Or do we use common sense? Obviously it's common sense. Because laws can have loopholes and what else is it but common sense that is used to identify these loop holes? In the end that is the basis for our judgement. Law is simply a way to codify our fuzzy sense of morality into an exact logic. The problem, however, is that it is often wrong (with loop holes and tax laws and such) and we have to fall back to a fuzzy sense of what is right or wrong. AKA common sense. Haha yeah, let's stick with common sense arguments rather then strict interpretations of the word of the law which is obviously flawed.
aaomidi 4y ago
Alternatively: fun culture should also be inclusive and not limited to taking part in activities that you’re socially forced to do. For example, alcohol. Alcohol is still culturally dominant, especially in Europe. Does your take mean if you don’t want to drink, you should just keep quitting?
- deltaseventhree 4y ago
  Find a job where no one expects you to drink. Simple. Drinking is culturally dominant in Europe but what's also culturally dominant is that drinking shouldn't be forced. And many companies follow this rule from a cultural standpoint. There are many teams that have fun and allow employees to not join in on the fun. BUT there are teams where this is sort of expected. For you: join the former team not the later and have empathy to see why the later team exists. Many companies are looking for a team with synergy which is more then just coming in, doing the work, and leaving. If you don't have this synergy, don't join. Join the company that works for you.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >Find a job where no one expects you to drink. Simple. It's not the job of a fucking employer to expect you to drink or not drink. Except if you work at a hostess bar. It shouldn't even be put as an option to "expect you to drink". Like employees shouldn't also "just find a job where they don't except you to laught at their sexist remarks at you" should not be an option. >BUT there are teams where this is sort of expected. There are also teams were sexual harassment, racism, bullying etc is expected. So?
    - deltaseventhree 4y ago
      Sexual harassment and racism and bullying aren't what I'm talking about. Please don't take this in a flame-war direction. I am explicitly talking about partying and having fun in extra curricular activities with employees. I'm saying regardless of the law, it's fair for an employer to expect this of the employee ONLY IF the employee KNEW about this expectation before joining. I make a case for this by saying how this type of stuff does in fact benefit the team overall.
coldtea 4y ago
>I think culture is important. And I think it shouldn't be. Companies should be about work and professionalism, not culture and other touch feely BS. At best, a cultural fit that would disqualify one is if they're a pacifict and the company makes weapons, or something similar. Not if they don't like BS company mandated non-work activities, bro-style interaction, political partisanship forced upon employees, alcohol-fueld bonding, or "we overwork employees 24/7 because they are starry-eyed idiots fresh out of college with no personal life, and you should work like that too", and so on.
- deltaseventhree 4y ago
  >And I think it shouldn't be. Companies should be about work and professionalism, not culture and other touch feely BS. Professionalism is an artificial construct. Throughout most of human history people operated as tribes and social groups. All the touchy and feely BS was inevitable. Given that it's part of our biological and anthropological nature you literally cannot expect no team to be formed this way at all. Many teams want this level of synergy and because it is a natural part of our history and biology it is inevitable that many teams will be formed this way REGARDLESS of the law. Learn to identify these teams and join the team that fits you. I think it is completely wrong to forcefully embed yourself in a team where you don't fit in and use the law to help you remain on this team and enforce your idea of professionalism. You will literally destroy the spirit of the team. Under our current culture and law there will definitely be teams that value what you value. And that is where you fit in and that is the company you should join. But have understanding and empathy to see why this "bro-style" interaction and "alcohol fueled" bonding is necessary in other teams.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    <<Professionalism is an artificial construct. Most things are. Why is it a requirement to join any team at all, which also happens to be an artificial construct?
    - deltaseventhree 4y ago
      The concept of Teams are not a an artificial construct. They are part of biology both inside and outside of human biology. Other animals besides humans form teams as well. Professional teams are however artificial. The formalism between separating a personal life from a professional life does not exist anywhere in the animal kingdom and did not exist for most of human history. >Why is it a requirement to join any team at all, which also happens to be an artificial construct? It is not a requirement to join a team at all. You can join no team, and that is your choice. Likely though you will want to join a team to survive. In the past humans survived in groups. A human that is not part of a tribe likely had a low chance of survival. Nowadays you need to join a team to get a salary. But nowadays you have an extra option. You can join something called a "professional" team which is a team that separates your personal life from your "professional" one. However the traditional concept of a "team" still exists and you can choose not to join such a team if choose not to. I ask though that you have the wisdom to see why the concept of the "traditional team" still exists and why such teams are still effective in our society. Think about it this way. Team bonding activities still exist. They exist for a reason and that reason is because the company that created that activity WANTS you to join it. The requirement is still there. It is not unreasonable to see how some teams WANT these traditional bonding activities more then other teams. It all depends on the dynamics and for you to force the team to abide by your dynamics of "professionalism" is wrong. You have options, JOIN the team that works.
orwin 4y ago
Why "Apart from the sexual acts"? I mean, i don't drink anymore, and i avoid having sex with people i work with at all cost nowadays. Why is the alcohol more part of the team culture than promiscuity? To be completely honest, i think promiscuity (even when not helped by alcohol) is a better team-builder than alcohol. I mean, most of us have been students, i expect the US to have a more involved punk and hippie culture than my country (and in my country, sex was pretty much expected in these circle when i was a student) and if i read the "frat" stories right, you don't even have to be a fringe leftist to use sex as a team-building tool, it seems to be more mainstream. I also have been a youth camp counselor, and been with coastguards during summertime, those are at least two job where promiscuity is expected (you don't HAVE to partake, and you won't be fired if you don't), and i built stronger friendships there than at my first CS internship where the only teambuilding tool was alcohol (and food).
- deltaseventhree 4y ago
  You are right. I guess because this sort of crosses the line into "rape" and prostitution. Expectation to have sex on the job sort of straddles those lines a bit, but I see your point. Let's say there weren't any moral hang ups and people readily put this thing in job descriptions. If you refused when offered then it's fair game if you're fired. I have no exact answer here, but I do empathize with your angle.
gedy 4y ago
Culture is fine in the office, but enforcing outside activities is inappropriate. E.g. previous company was full of young, attractive, single people and they loved to go out together. Fine, but I shouldn't be dinged for being older, married, and not very attractive and not being comfortable with bars and hot tubs. (Especially when any sort of friendliness towards young women is lasered in on, and not worth the professional risk)
- deltaseventhree 4y ago
  > Culture is fine in the office, but enforcing outside activities is inappropriate. Let me put it this way. If the job description expects it to be out of office and YOU chose to work for THAT job, then it's fair game to fire you should you choose not to live up to the spirit of the description. But it shouldn't be forced upon you if it's not part of the job description. Overall though I don't think it's much of a problem. Most companies are, like you said, they leave the participation to be optional and everyone is cool with it.
  - gedy 4y ago
    Yeah agreed, though I do think a lot of places have a wordless expectation sometimes.
ChoHag 4y ago

skor 4y ago

you’re paid to do your job. Being part of your job falls in the _doing the job_. What’s not on the contract is obviously not part of it. Doing hard drugs, as is alcohol, is not part of any legal contract. My personal preference is to withdraw from any circumstances that include using hard drugs like alcohol with anyone you do serious work with. .. in fuzzy situations have a beer and make an excuse, it always works out better.

deltaseventhree 4y ago
It's more then that for certain companies and teams. If that's what you want join the team where you _only do the job_. Don't join the team that demands more social bonding and friendship. This guy joined a team where he obviously didn't fit in. Case in point. In japan the outside of work stuff is a requirement for every job. You literally need to hang out with the entire team after work. This is the opposite extreme. What I'm advocating for is _join a team that fits_. Don't fucking insist that you're _doing the job_ on a team that obviously wants more.
- a_techwriter_00 4y ago
  I assume "this job takes team bonding so seriously that when the boss tells you to get drunk with him or get in bed with another random employee, that's just part of the job, so don't work here if you're not cool with it" is always on the job description or at least disclosed up-front in a job interview so that everyone can make an informed decision about whether or not they're a good culture fit, right?
  - deltaseventhree 4y ago
    You assume correct. Obviously this stuff can't be written down in the description but it is still the employers responsibility to IMPLY that this debauchery is expected as part of team bonding. I would say the employer is at fault here for not making this obvious. BUT, firing the employee was correct. He didn't fit in, and HAD he known this, he shouldn't have joined. Staying at the job WHILE knowing this is something that he shouldn't have done. He should have looked for another job and left as well. Quitting or getting fired is the inevitable outcome here.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      >You assume correct. Obviously this stuff can't be written down in the description but it is still the employers responsibility to IMPLY that this debauchery is expected as part of team bonding. If one is so open about it, like about firing employees for not drinking like the boss likes, can they post the details of the company you work at or run? Should be no big deal, right? It's an acceptable social thing, and not sociopathic madness, so should bring no ill consequences if it's made public...
      - deltasevenseven 4y ago
        Yeah I work for google. Let me reword my sentence a bit because I left some things implied but a lot of people didn't pick up on it. It should be an expectation put FORTH in the JOB DESCRIPTION before the employee is hired. It is a reasonable expectation, PROVIDED the employee knew about the expectation BEFORE he is hired. If he didn't know about it, and the expectation was sprung on him, then it is UNFAIR.
deltaseventhree 4y ago
You made edits, so I will address those: >Doing hard drugs, as is alcohol, is not part of any legal contract. Right but there's more to life then legal contracts. Many companies want a very close knit team. Part of this closeness comes from participating in extracurricular activities. Look beyond the legalities. If a team expects this and you know you don't want to provide this to the team, THEN why are you choosing to work for them? Why are you insisting on using the law to protect your employment for a company that obviously doesn't want you? Join the team that works for you. If you withdraw from all hard drugs, JOIN the company that doesn't HAVE that culture or leaves that CULTURE as OPTIONAL. For this guy in the article he joined a team that wasn't a good fit for him. Him getting fired was correct, he never fitted in. But I will say what's likely unfair is that the "fun" part should've been part of the job description. They should've put it in there, not explicitly but implied it such that this guy knew what he was getting into.
- skor 4y ago
  jumping into a fire or out of a plane is not on the contract but can be part of a “team building” activity. That is what i’m pointing out. > Look beyond the legalities haha, yeah thats the part that I want everyone to focus on in this debate.
  - deltaseventhree 4y ago
    > jumping into a fire or out of a plane is not on the contract but can be part of a “team building” activity. That is what i’m pointing out. There's a concept of common sense. With common sense we can easily rule out jumping off of planes and into fires without getting pedantic or technical. Let's use some of this sense when talking so things don't get overly technical. >haha, yeah thats the part that I want everyone to focus on in this debate. Do we let laws define what's right and wrong? Or do we use common sense? Obviously it's common sense. Because laws can have loopholes and what else is it but common sense that is used to identify these loop holes? In the end that is the basis for our judgement. Law is simply a way to codify our fuzzy sense of morality into an exact logic. The problem, however, is that it is often wrong (with loop holes and tax laws and such) and we have to fall back to a fuzzy sense of what is right or wrong. AKA common sense. Haha yeah, let's stick with common sense arguments rather then strict interpretations of the word of the law which is obviously flawed.

aaomidi 4y ago

Alternatively: fun culture should also be inclusive and not limited to taking part in activities that you’re socially forced to do. For example, alcohol. Alcohol is still culturally dominant, especially in Europe. Does your take mean if you don’t want to drink, you should just keep quitting?

deltaseventhree 4y ago
Find a job where no one expects you to drink. Simple. Drinking is culturally dominant in Europe but what's also culturally dominant is that drinking shouldn't be forced. And many companies follow this rule from a cultural standpoint. There are many teams that have fun and allow employees to not join in on the fun. BUT there are teams where this is sort of expected. For you: join the former team not the later and have empathy to see why the later team exists. Many companies are looking for a team with synergy which is more then just coming in, doing the work, and leaving. If you don't have this synergy, don't join. Join the company that works for you.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Find a job where no one expects you to drink. Simple. It's not the job of a fucking employer to expect you to drink or not drink. Except if you work at a hostess bar. It shouldn't even be put as an option to "expect you to drink". Like employees shouldn't also "just find a job where they don't except you to laught at their sexist remarks at you" should not be an option. >BUT there are teams where this is sort of expected. There are also teams were sexual harassment, racism, bullying etc is expected. So?
  - deltaseventhree 4y ago
    Sexual harassment and racism and bullying aren't what I'm talking about. Please don't take this in a flame-war direction. I am explicitly talking about partying and having fun in extra curricular activities with employees. I'm saying regardless of the law, it's fair for an employer to expect this of the employee ONLY IF the employee KNEW about this expectation before joining. I make a case for this by saying how this type of stuff does in fact benefit the team overall.

coldtea 4y ago

>I think culture is important. And I think it shouldn't be. Companies should be about work and professionalism, not culture and other touch feely BS. At best, a cultural fit that would disqualify one is if they're a pacifict and the company makes weapons, or something similar. Not if they don't like BS company mandated non-work activities, bro-style interaction, political partisanship forced upon employees, alcohol-fueld bonding, or "we overwork employees 24/7 because they are starry-eyed idiots fresh out of college with no personal life, and you should work like that too", and so on.

deltaseventhree 4y ago
>And I think it shouldn't be. Companies should be about work and professionalism, not culture and other touch feely BS. Professionalism is an artificial construct. Throughout most of human history people operated as tribes and social groups. All the touchy and feely BS was inevitable. Given that it's part of our biological and anthropological nature you literally cannot expect no team to be formed this way at all. Many teams want this level of synergy and because it is a natural part of our history and biology it is inevitable that many teams will be formed this way REGARDLESS of the law. Learn to identify these teams and join the team that fits you. I think it is completely wrong to forcefully embed yourself in a team where you don't fit in and use the law to help you remain on this team and enforce your idea of professionalism. You will literally destroy the spirit of the team. Under our current culture and law there will definitely be teams that value what you value. And that is where you fit in and that is the company you should join. But have understanding and empathy to see why this "bro-style" interaction and "alcohol fueled" bonding is necessary in other teams.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  <<Professionalism is an artificial construct. Most things are. Why is it a requirement to join any team at all, which also happens to be an artificial construct?
  - deltaseventhree 4y ago
    The concept of Teams are not a an artificial construct. They are part of biology both inside and outside of human biology. Other animals besides humans form teams as well. Professional teams are however artificial. The formalism between separating a personal life from a professional life does not exist anywhere in the animal kingdom and did not exist for most of human history. >Why is it a requirement to join any team at all, which also happens to be an artificial construct? It is not a requirement to join a team at all. You can join no team, and that is your choice. Likely though you will want to join a team to survive. In the past humans survived in groups. A human that is not part of a tribe likely had a low chance of survival. Nowadays you need to join a team to get a salary. But nowadays you have an extra option. You can join something called a "professional" team which is a team that separates your personal life from your "professional" one. However the traditional concept of a "team" still exists and you can choose not to join such a team if choose not to. I ask though that you have the wisdom to see why the concept of the "traditional team" still exists and why such teams are still effective in our society. Think about it this way. Team bonding activities still exist. They exist for a reason and that reason is because the company that created that activity WANTS you to join it. The requirement is still there. It is not unreasonable to see how some teams WANT these traditional bonding activities more then other teams. It all depends on the dynamics and for you to force the team to abide by your dynamics of "professionalism" is wrong. You have options, JOIN the team that works.

orwin 4y ago

Why "Apart from the sexual acts"? I mean, i don't drink anymore, and i avoid having sex with people i work with at all cost nowadays. Why is the alcohol more part of the team culture than promiscuity? To be completely honest, i think promiscuity (even when not helped by alcohol) is a better team-builder than alcohol. I mean, most of us have been students, i expect the US to have a more involved punk and hippie culture than my country (and in my country, sex was pretty much expected in these circle when i was a student) and if i read the "frat" stories right, you don't even have to be a fringe leftist to use sex as a team-building tool, it seems to be more mainstream. I also have been a youth camp counselor, and been with coastguards during summertime, those are at least two job where promiscuity is expected (you don't HAVE to partake, and you won't be fired if you don't), and i built stronger friendships there than at my first CS internship where the only teambuilding tool was alcohol (and food).

deltaseventhree 4y ago
You are right. I guess because this sort of crosses the line into "rape" and prostitution. Expectation to have sex on the job sort of straddles those lines a bit, but I see your point. Let's say there weren't any moral hang ups and people readily put this thing in job descriptions. If you refused when offered then it's fair game if you're fired. I have no exact answer here, but I do empathize with your angle.

gedy 4y ago

Culture is fine in the office, but enforcing outside activities is inappropriate. E.g. previous company was full of young, attractive, single people and they loved to go out together. Fine, but I shouldn't be dinged for being older, married, and not very attractive and not being comfortable with bars and hot tubs. (Especially when any sort of friendliness towards young women is lasered in on, and not worth the professional risk)

deltaseventhree 4y ago
> Culture is fine in the office, but enforcing outside activities is inappropriate. Let me put it this way. If the job description expects it to be out of office and YOU chose to work for THAT job, then it's fair game to fire you should you choose not to live up to the spirit of the description. But it shouldn't be forced upon you if it's not part of the job description. Overall though I don't think it's much of a problem. Most companies are, like you said, they leave the participation to be optional and everyone is cool with it.
- gedy 4y ago
  Yeah agreed, though I do think a lot of places have a wordless expectation sometimes.

ChoHag 4y ago