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When you remember that the DoD is really just a $800B jobs program for segments of the population that would otherwise blush at accepting welfare (including man

When you remember that the DoD is really just a $800B jobs program for segments of the population that would otherwise blush at accepting welfare (including many of the fine commenters on this website), it becomes easier to understand why it's culturally incapable of passing a financial audit.

jrockway 4y ago
Do you get the impression that a large number of HN readers work for the federal government or defense contractors? I certainly don't.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Plenty work for companies that contract with the DoD, even if they are non "defense contractors" in the historical/industry scope sense. Google and Amazon, for example, do brisk business with the DoD. And, to be clear: I don't have any particular problem with that, at least any more so than anything about the general business of defense! I'd just prefer we be a little more honest about the financial structure.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  I would bet the majority (or maybe even the vast majority) of HN readers work for companies that do some business with the DoD. The amount of money the DoD invests in virtually every US industry can't be underestimated.
jm4 4y ago
This is quite possibly dumbest thing I have ever seen written on this site. You are grossly underestimating the DOD, its purpose and its necessity at a time when it is more important than it has been in decades. Obviously, there is waste, failed projects, and pockets of dysfunction. That happens in all large organizations. Despite all its flaws, the DOD is putting on a clinic on superior training, logistics, discipline, technology and power projection. I shudder to think what the world would look like right now and in several years without the DOD. Europe would be getting steamrolled if not for the DOD and NATO and it wouldn’t end there.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  These things are not incompatible. And you'd be incorrect to think that I doubt the value delivered by the DoD. My point is a very simple one: the DoD is as large as it is because the US has a cultural aversion to accepting welfare. We can't make it obvious that we want to build a large, well-educated, and financially stable middle class by dumping money onto it, so we build it up by dumping money into the DoD instead and ensuring that just about every (genuinely innovative!) facet of American industry gets a piece of the pie. When the DoD is built into the lifeblood of your middle class like this, it is culturally impossible to audit it, because auditing it would reveal the truth so many Americans find embarrassing or politically repugnant: that their livelihoods come from government-driven funding intended to give them decent lives, not the invisible hand of the market.
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    You’re making a lot of interesting assumptions based on nothing I can see. It would be fascinating to hear more about where you get these ideas from.
    - s5300 4y ago
      Probably from growing up in one of said areas that obviously majorly benefit. What they’re saying is very much true, I’m curious of your upbringing & knowledge of the topic if you really think they’re wrong
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        You couldn’t be further off base.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      I'm happy to try and walk through my assumptions (although maybe not at this very moment, since it's late here). If you list out the ones that you think I'm making, I'll try my best to substantiate them.
jeffreygoesto 4y ago
I think that every group of people substantially bigger than a pack develops a dominating belly of mediocrity. You can say the same about any big corp, even FAANG are big and settled enough now. The percentage of really brilliant people is just too low. And if more of them flock together, Theo often don't necessarily firm a brilliant team. Today also on FP: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756219
- galaxyLogic 4y ago
  We can't remove mediocrity because it by definition is what is in the middle. We can remove corruption if we just have the political will. Assuming the politicians themselves are not part of the corruption.
7thaccount 4y ago
You're not wrong in some ways. In my industry they gave like $50M to a small group of university researchers to come up with some truly useless research. Very smart people, but a huge waste and some of the projects cost millions to essentially do what someone in industry could do in a week, but wouldn't because there's no point. I imagine if you multiply that by 1000, you could get an accurate depiction of the university jobs program.
jl6 4y ago
Check out the 2022 Congressional Pig Book: https://www.cagw.org/reporting/pig-book https://www.cagw.org/reporting/pig-book It identifies $8bn of pork. That’s a lot of money, but if the overall DoD budget is $800bn, then your claim is 1% true by that measure. Is the DoD inefficient in other ways? Surely yes, but to claim it is “really just” a jobs program is unfair and teleological.
copenseethe 4y ago
markus_zhang 4y ago
I think it's more of welfare to large corporations.
shrimpx 4y ago
I wonder what the wealth redistribution effects are in this scenario. I wonder if you’d achieve a similar effect by cutting 500B of taxes on the middle class, or if a lot of this money gets redistributed down to the low-taxpaying class.

jrockway 4y ago

Do you get the impression that a large number of HN readers work for the federal government or defense contractors? I certainly don't.

woodruffw 4y ago
Plenty work for companies that contract with the DoD, even if they are non "defense contractors" in the historical/industry scope sense. Google and Amazon, for example, do brisk business with the DoD. And, to be clear: I don't have any particular problem with that, at least any more so than anything about the general business of defense! I'd just prefer we be a little more honest about the financial structure.
tsimionescu 4y ago
I would bet the majority (or maybe even the vast majority) of HN readers work for companies that do some business with the DoD. The amount of money the DoD invests in virtually every US industry can't be underestimated.

jm4 4y ago

This is quite possibly dumbest thing I have ever seen written on this site. You are grossly underestimating the DOD, its purpose and its necessity at a time when it is more important than it has been in decades. Obviously, there is waste, failed projects, and pockets of dysfunction. That happens in all large organizations. Despite all its flaws, the DOD is putting on a clinic on superior training, logistics, discipline, technology and power projection. I shudder to think what the world would look like right now and in several years without the DOD. Europe would be getting steamrolled if not for the DOD and NATO and it wouldn’t end there.

woodruffw 4y ago
These things are not incompatible. And you'd be incorrect to think that I doubt the value delivered by the DoD. My point is a very simple one: the DoD is as large as it is because the US has a cultural aversion to accepting welfare. We can't make it obvious that we want to build a large, well-educated, and financially stable middle class by dumping money onto it, so we build it up by dumping money into the DoD instead and ensuring that just about every (genuinely innovative!) facet of American industry gets a piece of the pie. When the DoD is built into the lifeblood of your middle class like this, it is culturally impossible to audit it, because auditing it would reveal the truth so many Americans find embarrassing or politically repugnant: that their livelihoods come from government-driven funding intended to give them decent lives, not the invisible hand of the market.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  You’re making a lot of interesting assumptions based on nothing I can see. It would be fascinating to hear more about where you get these ideas from.
  - s5300 4y ago
    Probably from growing up in one of said areas that obviously majorly benefit. What they’re saying is very much true, I’m curious of your upbringing & knowledge of the topic if you really think they’re wrong
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      You couldn’t be further off base.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I'm happy to try and walk through my assumptions (although maybe not at this very moment, since it's late here). If you list out the ones that you think I'm making, I'll try my best to substantiate them.

jeffreygoesto 4y ago

I think that every group of people substantially bigger than a pack develops a dominating belly of mediocrity. You can say the same about any big corp, even FAANG are big and settled enough now. The percentage of really brilliant people is just too low. And if more of them flock together, Theo often don't necessarily firm a brilliant team. Today also on FP: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756219 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33756219

galaxyLogic 4y ago
We can't remove mediocrity because it by definition is what is in the middle. We can remove corruption if we just have the political will. Assuming the politicians themselves are not part of the corruption.

7thaccount 4y ago

You're not wrong in some ways. In my industry they gave like $50M to a small group of university researchers to come up with some truly useless research. Very smart people, but a huge waste and some of the projects cost millions to essentially do what someone in industry could do in a week, but wouldn't because there's no point. I imagine if you multiply that by 1000, you could get an accurate depiction of the university jobs program.

jl6 4y ago

Check out the 2022 Congressional Pig Book: https://www.cagw.org/reporting/pig-book https://www.cagw.org/reporting/pig-book It identifies $8bn of pork. That’s a lot of money, but if the overall DoD budget is $800bn, then your claim is 1% true by that measure. Is the DoD inefficient in other ways? Surely yes, but to claim it is “really just” a jobs program is unfair and teleological.

copenseethe 4y ago

markus_zhang 4y ago

I think it's more of welfare to large corporations.

shrimpx 4y ago

I wonder what the wealth redistribution effects are in this scenario. I wonder if you’d achieve a similar effect by cutting 500B of taxes on the middle class, or if a lot of this money gets redistributed down to the low-taxpaying class.