4 ms·

We recently shopped for new home appliances and were surprised at how hard it is to find non-"smart" ones these days. At this point I think it's inevitable tha

We recently shopped for new home appliances and were surprised at how hard it is to find non-"smart" ones these days. At this point I think it's inevitable that some appliance features will require a subscription (e.g. your fridge's ice-maker is an additional $5/month).

nazgulsenpai 4y ago
I've heard this same sentiment for years but my refrigerator/freezer went out approx 3 months ago and I was dreading having to find a dumb replacement. But when I went to our local Lowe's, surprisingly there was only one smart refrigerator option out of the approx. 30 dumb units. So I was able to easily purchase a nice, high quality, dumb replacement. Obviously that's just anecdotal, but was a pleasant surprise.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  It is very quick and easy to filter options on homedepot.com, Lowes.com, Costco.com, and BestBuy.com to see many non smart fridges available for purchase.
thisiscorrect 4y ago
Most people are terrible at pricing an item over its full lifetime. A smaller cash outlay almost always attracts a sale, even if the item has a much shorter expected lifespan than a more expensive alternative, or will require constant repairs, etc. Seeing a low base price on a car, fridge, etc will sway people to buy an item even if there's now a larger operational expense. You're not just powering a device you own anymore but also "unlocking" the Ice Maker Feature(tm) for $5/month. This feels like businesses are trying to force everyone in the debt trap that keeps the poor where they are. Having to pay a monthly subscription for basic functionality isn't _that_ different from being in debt. But instead of floating consumers a loan, these companies are selling an item that selectively breaks if they miss a payment.
- wilhil 4y ago
  Except I'm not seeing anything on subscription where you already own the hardware actually being sold for cheaper!
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Part of it is simply, why would it sell for cheaper when they can get away selling it for the same? And part of it, I believe, is inflation. I.e. I believe inflation is vastly undercounted and underreported, because a good chunk of it hides in "shrinkflation", decrease of manufacturing quality, lower-quality components, replacing customer service with "AI" chatbots and recently also voicebots, more ads and upsells, and - of course - extra subscriptions tacked on to everything.
abyssin 4y ago
I bought a new washing machine two months ago. I went to an appliance store and specifically asked for a dumb one. The seller lied to me and said they don’t sell those. They actually did, but it was the cheapest model and I had to look for it by myself. For my next washing machine, I’ll be looking for a professional model, of the kind that you find in laundromats.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  From what I hear, the problem with professional models of appliances, beyond concerns like heat, noise, vibration and price, is that in some cases, it could void your home insurance. One needs to read the policy extra carefully these days.
scrollaway 4y ago
Serious question: How do we fight back? It's easy to say "just don't buy it", but a few of us not buying it will not swing the balance sheets when the extra profit is so significant for the companies pulling this shit. It seems inevitable that these types of subscriptions will slowly take over more and more areas of end consumer lives, until there's such a fatigue and hard push-back on subscriptions that it becomes profitable to create companies that sell products outright just to compete with subscription models. As-is, launching a company that will compete with the subscription models is difficult. You will have a harder time finding investors (who will see the numbers and ask, "are you crazy?"). You basically have to do this, alongside others, just because you believe it's the right thing to do. And then you have to not get bought up by a company that will introduce this model. I'm not saying all subscription models are bad; I believe they're warranted or a good trade-off in a lot of cases, especially in hosted software. But knowing how significant a difference it makes, I just don't see this turning out well for consumers, even if we want to organize boycotts. So, how do we speedrun to the part where "you own your product" competition exists and thrives?
- smartscience 4y ago
  Unauthorised third-party modifications and add-ons may end up being part of the solution here. It's already established that this can be a viable business model with e.g. car accessories, games consoles and printer inks. I can see a market for one-off DIY modifications to various things that unlock what was intended to be a subscription feature. A related issue is the increasing possiblity of devices being effectively bricked because some cloud service or online system has ceased support. Could there be a niche for a company selling improved after-market firmware for other companies' devices?
briffle 4y ago
My fridge is not ‘smart’ but the water filter has a chip in it that does not allow third party filters. Funny how that fact was not advertised when I bought it.
Zenst 4y ago
Almost awaiting the day that I read somebody locked out of their fridge due to payment issue of some hidden subscription. Then the whole aspect of data mining, how long (if not already) will these devices report back your usage and activity that is sold on.
nhubbard 4y ago
In my humble opinion, here are some of the best appliance brands that don't require smart features to be enabled or offer smart features. For washers and dryers: Speed Queen makes some of the most reliable washers and dryers I've ever seen. You'll pay an arm and a leg for them, but they're known to last for between double to quadruple the length of the warranty. My family recently had to purchase a new washing machine, and the Speed Queen display at the store showed off the drum unit designs for Speed Queen vs their competition; Speed Queen uses a single giant gear made of stainless steel, whereas other brands use super complex plastic gearboxes. For refrigerators: it's really a toss-up; I was able to find plenty of high predicted reliability models without Wi-Fi on Consumer Reports' website. For other appliances: I haven't had to look for any other appliances as of late, but I always look to CR first because I personally trust their ratings. Your milage may vary.
- vendiddy 4y ago
  How do you know if a product will last a long time ahead purchasing it? Is Consumer Reports your goto? So many products these days break down within a few years :/
  - nradov 4y ago
    If durability is your primary criteria then the usual recommendation is to purchase commercial appliances targeted towards restaurants and institutional customers. Those have fewer features and cost more, but are generally more robust. Consumer Reports doesn't usually review those.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Quality and a name. My wolf stove is 10 years old. Will last 10 more. But it cost like 16k. Could have bought 12-16 normal stoves for that price. I know it will last both because mine has made it 10 already, and I know many people with even older stoves.
Gud 4y ago
I doubt it but I share your concerns - you will always get the basic home appliances without proprietary firmware, or at least the ability to flash them with open source firmware. I can’t wait to see the first open source car for mass production.

nazgulsenpai 4y ago

I've heard this same sentiment for years but my refrigerator/freezer went out approx 3 months ago and I was dreading having to find a dumb replacement. But when I went to our local Lowe's, surprisingly there was only one smart refrigerator option out of the approx. 30 dumb units. So I was able to easily purchase a nice, high quality, dumb replacement. Obviously that's just anecdotal, but was a pleasant surprise.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
It is very quick and easy to filter options on homedepot.com, Lowes.com, Costco.com, and BestBuy.com to see many non smart fridges available for purchase.

thisiscorrect 4y ago

Most people are terrible at pricing an item over its full lifetime. A smaller cash outlay almost always attracts a sale, even if the item has a much shorter expected lifespan than a more expensive alternative, or will require constant repairs, etc. Seeing a low base price on a car, fridge, etc will sway people to buy an item even if there's now a larger operational expense. You're not just powering a device you own anymore but also "unlocking" the Ice Maker Feature(tm) for $5/month. This feels like businesses are trying to force everyone in the debt trap that keeps the poor where they are. Having to pay a monthly subscription for basic functionality isn't _that_ different from being in debt. But instead of floating consumers a loan, these companies are selling an item that selectively breaks if they miss a payment.

wilhil 4y ago
Except I'm not seeing anything on subscription where you already own the hardware actually being sold for cheaper!
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Part of it is simply, why would it sell for cheaper when they can get away selling it for the same? And part of it, I believe, is inflation. I.e. I believe inflation is vastly undercounted and underreported, because a good chunk of it hides in "shrinkflation", decrease of manufacturing quality, lower-quality components, replacing customer service with "AI" chatbots and recently also voicebots, more ads and upsells, and - of course - extra subscriptions tacked on to everything.

abyssin 4y ago

I bought a new washing machine two months ago. I went to an appliance store and specifically asked for a dumb one. The seller lied to me and said they don’t sell those. They actually did, but it was the cheapest model and I had to look for it by myself. For my next washing machine, I’ll be looking for a professional model, of the kind that you find in laundromats.

TeMPOraL 4y ago
From what I hear, the problem with professional models of appliances, beyond concerns like heat, noise, vibration and price, is that in some cases, it could void your home insurance. One needs to read the policy extra carefully these days.

scrollaway 4y ago

Serious question: How do we fight back? It's easy to say "just don't buy it", but a few of us not buying it will not swing the balance sheets when the extra profit is so significant for the companies pulling this shit. It seems inevitable that these types of subscriptions will slowly take over more and more areas of end consumer lives, until there's such a fatigue and hard push-back on subscriptions that it becomes profitable to create companies that sell products outright just to compete with subscription models. As-is, launching a company that will compete with the subscription models is difficult. You will have a harder time finding investors (who will see the numbers and ask, "are you crazy?"). You basically have to do this, alongside others, just because you believe it's the right thing to do. And then you have to not get bought up by a company that will introduce this model. I'm not saying all subscription models are bad; I believe they're warranted or a good trade-off in a lot of cases, especially in hosted software. But knowing how significant a difference it makes, I just don't see this turning out well for consumers, even if we want to organize boycotts. So, how do we speedrun to the part where "you own your product" competition exists and thrives?

smartscience 4y ago
Unauthorised third-party modifications and add-ons may end up being part of the solution here. It's already established that this can be a viable business model with e.g. car accessories, games consoles and printer inks. I can see a market for one-off DIY modifications to various things that unlock what was intended to be a subscription feature. A related issue is the increasing possiblity of devices being effectively bricked because some cloud service or online system has ceased support. Could there be a niche for a company selling improved after-market firmware for other companies' devices?

briffle 4y ago

My fridge is not ‘smart’ but the water filter has a chip in it that does not allow third party filters. Funny how that fact was not advertised when I bought it.

Zenst 4y ago

Almost awaiting the day that I read somebody locked out of their fridge due to payment issue of some hidden subscription. Then the whole aspect of data mining, how long (if not already) will these devices report back your usage and activity that is sold on.

nhubbard 4y ago

In my humble opinion, here are some of the best appliance brands that don't require smart features to be enabled or offer smart features. For washers and dryers: Speed Queen makes some of the most reliable washers and dryers I've ever seen. You'll pay an arm and a leg for them, but they're known to last for between double to quadruple the length of the warranty. My family recently had to purchase a new washing machine, and the Speed Queen display at the store showed off the drum unit designs for Speed Queen vs their competition; Speed Queen uses a single giant gear made of stainless steel, whereas other brands use super complex plastic gearboxes. For refrigerators: it's really a toss-up; I was able to find plenty of high predicted reliability models without Wi-Fi on Consumer Reports' website. For other appliances: I haven't had to look for any other appliances as of late, but I always look to CR first because I personally trust their ratings. Your milage may vary.

vendiddy 4y ago
How do you know if a product will last a long time ahead purchasing it? Is Consumer Reports your goto? So many products these days break down within a few years :/
- nradov 4y ago
  If durability is your primary criteria then the usual recommendation is to purchase commercial appliances targeted towards restaurants and institutional customers. Those have fewer features and cost more, but are generally more robust. Consumer Reports doesn't usually review those.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Quality and a name. My wolf stove is 10 years old. Will last 10 more. But it cost like 16k. Could have bought 12-16 normal stoves for that price. I know it will last both because mine has made it 10 already, and I know many people with even older stoves.

Gud 4y ago

I doubt it but I share your concerns - you will always get the basic home appliances without proprietary firmware, or at least the ability to flash them with open source firmware. I can’t wait to see the first open source car for mass production.