11 ms·

Here is what I will say about Saudi Arabia as I lived there for 18 years from my birth as a non-Saudi: Most non-Saudis have a job at a company. Most of my frie

by tmdh 4y ago

Here is what I will say about Saudi Arabia as I lived there for 18 years from my birth as a non-Saudi: Most non-Saudis have a job at a company. Most of my friends' fathers had large businesses of various types. And almost all the people who have jobs have fair wages. I felt so safe living there, going out to the beach with my family at 2 am is no worry at all. Most of the people in Saudi Arabia are very friendly. I know I'll get downvoted, but as a Muslim, this is the best place to live. Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not.

bitcharmer 4y ago
> Most of my friends' fathers had large businesses of various types. And almost all the people who have jobs have fair wages I don't think you grew up in reality that the majority of population face. Your experience is vastly different from the common folk. > Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab It's a shame you don't respect women's choices about that (ask Iranians living under Islamic regime) and generally support oppressive system but I guess this is in everyone's conscience.
- stavros 4y ago
  > Your experience is vastly different from the common folk. Have you grown up in the reality that the majority of the population faces? If not, it's a bit presumptuous to be telling someone who has grown up there that you know better than them what their country is like.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    > If not, it's a bit presumptuous to be telling someone who has grown up there that you know better than them what their country is like. If someone has decent evidence of situation then it is not. I have never lived in USSR but I have enough knowledge to dismiss some misleading claims, even if they are coming from people who lived there.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
pavlov 4y ago
> "...as a Muslim, this is the best place to live. Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not." Afghanistan also has all the Islamic stuff. Is it a good place for a Muslim to live? If not, what's the difference? Is it just the oil money that allows a class of people to live in luxury while exerting Sharia law on the others?
- maccard 4y ago
  That's a ridiculously narrow view of what the OP said, and you know it. The US is deeply Christian, as is Zambia. Is Zambia as good a place to live as the US?
  - nullcaution 4y ago
    > The US is deeply Christian as is Zambia. Statisticaly no, the US is only 63% Christian, while Zambia is over 95%. Further I would argue that the actual american figure is lower due to Christianity's persistent cultural foothold in the country. If you count the number of people going to church weekly that figure is going to be much lower.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      Which solidifies their argument.
      - nullcaution 4y ago
        Im not on anyone's side, why would you assume that? Im just pointing out something that is factually incorrect.
        quickthrower2 4y ago
        I didn’t mean to say you were. Not an ad hom, just an observation.
    - 4y ago
tn890 4y ago
> but as a Muslim, this is the best place to live. Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not. Very insightful, surprised to hear people like it there, I'm glad. I think the problem with Sharia law and such is when people come from say Saudi Arabia or similar middle eastern countries and expect to bring their backwards ass laws with them to EU countries.
- wwtrv 4y ago
  I bet white straight males who owned property loved living in antebellum south...
- akg_67 4y ago
  Problem is same with western countries (EU/US). People emigrate from western countries to Asia and bring their backward ass laws with them to Asia and want Asian countries to conform to them. TLDR: Bigotry is a two way street. Either appreciate the differences or STFU. You don’t have monopoly on deciding whose laws are backward.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    That's a pretty stupid false equivalency. I can be annoyed by Singapore's laws against chewing gums, but that isn't in any way comparable to inhumane treatment of segments of the population for who they are (women, gay, etc.) or where they come from (Indian/Pakistani/etc. near slaves) in some places. Treating people as shit, or executing them is objectively bad. Merely for their sexual identity/preferences is objectively even worse. You don't have to be from a specific place to be able to appreciate that.
    - stareatgoats 4y ago
      > objectively bad I agree that treating people like shit or executing them is bad and most people would agree with you, but it is not objectively bad, since "bad" in the way you use it here is a subjective value judgement, by definition the polar opposite of objective. Just saying.
recuter 4y ago
Why do so many young Saudis change clothes literally at the airport bathroom (witnessed this multiple times) party and act western every chance they get away from such supervision?
- tmdh 4y ago
  What? I used to wear western clothes. Occasionally I would wear Saudi dresses, e.g. at a funeral.
- hasdha 4y ago
  What's acting western for you? Drinking alcohol and wearing jeans?
  - recuter 4y ago
    Sure, for example. Wearing jeans arguably hastened the end of the Soviet union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_Revolution Alcohol is haram. I hear the attitude towards Jeans in SA is now more lenient but less than a decade ago would get you in hot water with the religious police. You get the gist of it. The moment they leave that country many of its young people act very differently in ways that would not be allowed/frowned upon back home. What is up with that? A decadent Rumspringa before they willingly return to the warm embrace of Sharia or an escape from a compulsory punitive society in which they are unwilling participants?
sorokod 4y ago
Sounds nice, are you male?
akudha 4y ago
Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not No normal, rational human being would want to cover their face. If they do, then it means they’re raised that way and brainwashed. Or they’re straight up lying, for fear of prosecution.
- pocketarc 4y ago
  > No normal, rational human being would want to cover their face We’re raised to cover our bodies in clothes. You accept that as normal but draw the line at covering your face? Edit: Updated the quote I was replying to.
  - phatfish 4y ago
    Saudi Arabia has the climate that one could survive without clothes. In many other places you would be very cold. In the coldest places it is even necessary for someone to cover their face to avoid frostbite. Let's not pretend enforced face covering anything except the subjection of the female sex. "Enforced" includes the peer pressure to conform even if it's not breaking a law.
    - zakki 4y ago
      We are enforced to pay income tax. We accept it. And that is not a problem. Why a religion that enforced its law to its follower become a problem?
      - adammarples 4y ago
        Well a) lots of people do have a problem with income tax but at least b) it is spent on public goods, not just burned. What is the great public good of forcing women to cover their faces? This argument is so broad as to be meaningless. Oh I'm sorry, we have income tax so what's wrong with <travesty>?
      - wwtrv 4y ago
        If you can't tell the differ between paying income tax and executing women who try to resist being raped (or imprisoning those who don't), there isn't much point in having a good faith discussion with you, is it?
Crusoe123 4y ago
I'm sure Nazi Germany was great for some Germans too, if they willfully ignored all the bad stuff going on.
- FiberBundle 4y ago
  Unfortunately the Nazi regime was popular with the majority of Germans.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    Do you base this on the last "free election" that literally just had a large circle for "I want Adolf Hitler to be the Führer and sole leader of Germany" and a smaller one for "no"? Because in the last election before that[1], the Nazis didn't even get 50% of the vote and that was after heavy suppression of dissent and left-wing parties. I don't think there were any objective opinion polls you could base this on after the point at which disagreeing with the Nazi regime resulted in a visit from the police or worse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_elec... This was the last federal election in Germany and followed the Nazis openly attacking left-wing parties, fully controlling state propaganda, practically prohibiting all opposition parties from campaigning and literally shutting down opposition newspapers, plus staging the Reichstag fire -- and they still only got 43.9% of the vote at a 88.7% turnout. The previous federal election only got them 37.3% of the vote at a 80.6% turnout but this was enough to get Papen and Hindenburg to form a coalition government with Hitler at the helm.
    - wwtrv 4y ago
      Nazis weren't really that popular until the beginning of WW2, just that the opposition parties hated each other even more and were unable to unite in opposition (a bit like the Russian revolution). The conquest of France was an unifying (and legitimizing) moment when even the people who were passively skeptical of the regime mostly got behind it (actual opponents were almost all in exile or imprisoned by that point)
matkoniecz 4y ago
> I felt so safe living there, going out to the beach with my family at 2 am is no worry at all. That sounds normal for me. Why you would worry about going out during night?
- stavros 4y ago
  In some places you have to worry, I guess. Sounds like OP is from the ones where you do, and is (probably rightly) amazed by the ones where you don't.
algorias 4y ago
This is unsurprising to hear. But the problem I have with middle-eastern countries is not how they treat straight male muslims. This happens in many other cultures as well. E.g. Christians are super nice people. But if you reveal you're gay, then suddenly about half of them start treating you like crap.
- lzooz 4y ago
  You are free to live somewhere else then. I don't like the rules of Saudi Arabia so I don't live there.
  - algorias 4y ago
    Sometimes I have to travel through those countries. E.g. my employer demands that I take the cheapest flight to attend a conference.
    - TheGhostOfBoris 4y ago
      > my employer demands that I take the cheapest flight to attend a conference. WTF! Several of my employees bowl from the pavilion end. Is utterly unthinkable to insist on them transiting through a territory so hostile to their very existence in order to save a few quid on expenses. Your post is mind boggling to me. Is this how you expect to be treated as an employee?
      - etrautmann 4y ago
        What does that mean?
        skissane 4y ago
        bowl from the pavilion end is euphemistic slang (chiefly British) for a gay man. It comes from cricket - the “pavilion end” is one end of the cricket ground.
        TheGhostOfBoris 4y ago
croes 4y ago
>Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not. Doubt. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/iran-crackdown-peaceful-protests-death-jina-mahsa-amini-needs-independent https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/iran-crackdo...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
WeylandYutani 4y ago
What I like about Saudi Arabia is that it knows how to play America and the West. Saudi history is inspiring to every country blessed/cursed with oil and foreign corporations.
- wwtrv 4y ago
  Or you could look at actually inspiring examples like Norway...
- bitcharmer 4y ago
  Requirements to be inspiring: 1. Have lots of oil
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Human rights optional
NicoJuicy 4y ago
It isn't safe because of Sharia law. It's safe because they need foreigners to work there, since they themselves don't want to work and live off government oil money.
MikeDelta 4y ago
I appreciate your comment on life in SA, but your statement on what Muslims want goes too far: you don't speak for them. I know many who hold a very, very different view. Every individual has their own opinion.
watwut 4y ago
I feel safe too and I don't live in Muslim country.

by tmdh 4y ago

bitcharmer 4y ago

> Most of my friends' fathers had large businesses of various types. And almost all the people who have jobs have fair wages I don't think you grew up in reality that the majority of population face. Your experience is vastly different from the common folk. > Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab It's a shame you don't respect women's choices about that (ask Iranians living under Islamic regime) and generally support oppressive system but I guess this is in everyone's conscience.

stavros 4y ago
> Your experience is vastly different from the common folk. Have you grown up in the reality that the majority of the population faces? If not, it's a bit presumptuous to be telling someone who has grown up there that you know better than them what their country is like.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  > If not, it's a bit presumptuous to be telling someone who has grown up there that you know better than them what their country is like. If someone has decent evidence of situation then it is not. I have never lived in USSR but I have enough knowledge to dismiss some misleading claims, even if they are coming from people who lived there.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

pavlov 4y ago

> "...as a Muslim, this is the best place to live. Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not." Afghanistan also has all the Islamic stuff. Is it a good place for a Muslim to live? If not, what's the difference? Is it just the oil money that allows a class of people to live in luxury while exerting Sharia law on the others?

maccard 4y ago
That's a ridiculously narrow view of what the OP said, and you know it. The US is deeply Christian, as is Zambia. Is Zambia as good a place to live as the US?
- nullcaution 4y ago
  > The US is deeply Christian as is Zambia. Statisticaly no, the US is only 63% Christian, while Zambia is over 95%. Further I would argue that the actual american figure is lower due to Christianity's persistent cultural foothold in the country. If you count the number of people going to church weekly that figure is going to be much lower.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Which solidifies their argument.
    - nullcaution 4y ago
      Im not on anyone's side, why would you assume that? Im just pointing out something that is factually incorrect.
      - quickthrower2 4y ago
        I didn’t mean to say you were. Not an ad hom, just an observation.
  - 4y ago

tn890 4y ago

> but as a Muslim, this is the best place to live. Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not. Very insightful, surprised to hear people like it there, I'm glad. I think the problem with Sharia law and such is when people come from say Saudi Arabia or similar middle eastern countries and expect to bring their backwards ass laws with them to EU countries.

wwtrv 4y ago
I bet white straight males who owned property loved living in antebellum south...
akg_67 4y ago
Problem is same with western countries (EU/US). People emigrate from western countries to Asia and bring their backward ass laws with them to Asia and want Asian countries to conform to them. TLDR: Bigotry is a two way street. Either appreciate the differences or STFU. You don’t have monopoly on deciding whose laws are backward.
- sofixa 4y ago
  That's a pretty stupid false equivalency. I can be annoyed by Singapore's laws against chewing gums, but that isn't in any way comparable to inhumane treatment of segments of the population for who they are (women, gay, etc.) or where they come from (Indian/Pakistani/etc. near slaves) in some places. Treating people as shit, or executing them is objectively bad. Merely for their sexual identity/preferences is objectively even worse. You don't have to be from a specific place to be able to appreciate that.
  - stareatgoats 4y ago
    > objectively bad I agree that treating people like shit or executing them is bad and most people would agree with you, but it is not objectively bad, since "bad" in the way you use it here is a subjective value judgement, by definition the polar opposite of objective. Just saying.

recuter 4y ago

Why do so many young Saudis change clothes literally at the airport bathroom (witnessed this multiple times) party and act western every chance they get away from such supervision?

tmdh 4y ago
What? I used to wear western clothes. Occasionally I would wear Saudi dresses, e.g. at a funeral.
hasdha 4y ago
What's acting western for you? Drinking alcohol and wearing jeans?
- recuter 4y ago
  Sure, for example. Wearing jeans arguably hastened the end of the Soviet union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_Revolution Alcohol is haram. I hear the attitude towards Jeans in SA is now more lenient but less than a decade ago would get you in hot water with the religious police. You get the gist of it. The moment they leave that country many of its young people act very differently in ways that would not be allowed/frowned upon back home. What is up with that? A decadent Rumspringa before they willingly return to the warm embrace of Sharia or an escape from a compulsory punitive society in which they are unwilling participants?

sorokod 4y ago

Sounds nice, are you male?

akudha 4y ago

Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not No normal, rational human being would want to cover their face. If they do, then it means they’re raised that way and brainwashed. Or they’re straight up lying, for fear of prosecution.

pocketarc 4y ago
> No normal, rational human being would want to cover their face We’re raised to cover our bodies in clothes. You accept that as normal but draw the line at covering your face? Edit: Updated the quote I was replying to.
- phatfish 4y ago
  Saudi Arabia has the climate that one could survive without clothes. In many other places you would be very cold. In the coldest places it is even necessary for someone to cover their face to avoid frostbite. Let's not pretend enforced face covering anything except the subjection of the female sex. "Enforced" includes the peer pressure to conform even if it's not breaking a law.
  - zakki 4y ago
    We are enforced to pay income tax. We accept it. And that is not a problem. Why a religion that enforced its law to its follower become a problem?
    - adammarples 4y ago
      Well a) lots of people do have a problem with income tax but at least b) it is spent on public goods, not just burned. What is the great public good of forcing women to cover their faces? This argument is so broad as to be meaningless. Oh I'm sorry, we have income tax so what's wrong with <travesty>?
    - wwtrv 4y ago
      If you can't tell the differ between paying income tax and executing women who try to resist being raped (or imprisoning those who don't), there isn't much point in having a good faith discussion with you, is it?

Crusoe123 4y ago

I'm sure Nazi Germany was great for some Germans too, if they willfully ignored all the bad stuff going on.

FiberBundle 4y ago
Unfortunately the Nazi regime was popular with the majority of Germans.
- hnbad 4y ago
  Do you base this on the last "free election" that literally just had a large circle for "I want Adolf Hitler to be the Führer and sole leader of Germany" and a smaller one for "no"? Because in the last election before that[1], the Nazis didn't even get 50% of the vote and that was after heavy suppression of dissent and left-wing parties. I don't think there were any objective opinion polls you could base this on after the point at which disagreeing with the Nazi regime resulted in a visit from the police or worse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_elec... This was the last federal election in Germany and followed the Nazis openly attacking left-wing parties, fully controlling state propaganda, practically prohibiting all opposition parties from campaigning and literally shutting down opposition newspapers, plus staging the Reichstag fire -- and they still only got 43.9% of the vote at a 88.7% turnout. The previous federal election only got them 37.3% of the vote at a 80.6% turnout but this was enough to get Papen and Hindenburg to form a coalition government with Hitler at the helm.
  - wwtrv 4y ago
    Nazis weren't really that popular until the beginning of WW2, just that the opposition parties hated each other even more and were unable to unite in opposition (a bit like the Russian revolution). The conquest of France was an unifying (and legitimizing) moment when even the people who were passively skeptical of the regime mostly got behind it (actual opponents were almost all in exile or imprisoned by that point)

matkoniecz 4y ago

> I felt so safe living there, going out to the beach with my family at 2 am is no worry at all. That sounds normal for me. Why you would worry about going out during night?

stavros 4y ago
In some places you have to worry, I guess. Sounds like OP is from the ones where you do, and is (probably rightly) amazed by the ones where you don't.

algorias 4y ago

This is unsurprising to hear. But the problem I have with middle-eastern countries is not how they treat straight male muslims. This happens in many other cultures as well. E.g. Christians are super nice people. But if you reveal you're gay, then suddenly about half of them start treating you like crap.

lzooz 4y ago
You are free to live somewhere else then. I don't like the rules of Saudi Arabia so I don't live there.
- algorias 4y ago
  Sometimes I have to travel through those countries. E.g. my employer demands that I take the cheapest flight to attend a conference.
  - TheGhostOfBoris 4y ago
    > my employer demands that I take the cheapest flight to attend a conference. WTF! Several of my employees bowl from the pavilion end. Is utterly unthinkable to insist on them transiting through a territory so hostile to their very existence in order to save a few quid on expenses. Your post is mind boggling to me. Is this how you expect to be treated as an employee?
    - etrautmann 4y ago
      What does that mean?
      - skissane 4y ago
        bowl from the pavilion end is euphemistic slang (chiefly British) for a gay man. It comes from cricket - the “pavilion end” is one end of the cricket ground.
      - TheGhostOfBoris 4y ago

croes 4y ago

>Muslims want the Sharia law and all the other Islamic stuffs including hijab, prayers and what not. Doubt. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/iran-crackdown-peaceful-protests-death-jina-mahsa-amini-needs-independent https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/iran-crackdo...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

WeylandYutani 4y ago

What I like about Saudi Arabia is that it knows how to play America and the West. Saudi history is inspiring to every country blessed/cursed with oil and foreign corporations.

wwtrv 4y ago
Or you could look at actually inspiring examples like Norway...
bitcharmer 4y ago
Requirements to be inspiring: 1. Have lots of oil
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Human rights optional

NicoJuicy 4y ago

It isn't safe because of Sharia law. It's safe because they need foreigners to work there, since they themselves don't want to work and live off government oil money.

MikeDelta 4y ago

I appreciate your comment on life in SA, but your statement on what Muslims want goes too far: you don't speak for them. I know many who hold a very, very different view. Every individual has their own opinion.

watwut 4y ago

I feel safe too and I don't live in Muslim country.