6 ms·

Redox OS 0.8

117 points by sbt567 4y ago

sneak 4y ago
From the docs: > Redox is a general purpose operating system written in pure Rust. Our aim is to provide a fully functioning Unix-like microkernel, that is both secure and free. > We have modest compatibility with POSIX, allowing Redox to run many programs without porting. > We take inspiration from Plan9, Minix, Linux, and BSD. Redox aims to synthesize years of research and hard won experience into a system that feels modern and familiar.
twelvechairs 4y ago
Previous post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33724712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33724712
Shared404 4y ago
Redox is a project I'm very interested in. I think it has the capability to be the next "just a small hobby project".
- darthrupert 4y ago
  The problem perhaps is that it's mostly a RIIR project. Then again, Rust has given birth to a lot of those that ended up veing pretty great. Like ripgrep.
  - ilaksh 4y ago
    It's clear that C is a dated language that leads to numerous security problems. It is inevitable that we will switch to OS's written in Rust or similar safe languages, or will see most of Linux rewritten.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      It was already dated when compared against something like Modula-2 (1978), pity that OS vendors decided to go with UNIX clones.
  - forgotpwd16 4y ago
    I wouldn't call it a RiiR. It takes inspiration from other projects (namely Minix, Plan9, and ZFS for the filesystem) but is otherwise it's own thing and makes some interesting design decisions (e.g. being URL-centered).
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    The problem with some C belivers is that they lack the imagination to accept how systems programming used to be like before Bell Labs released UNIX V6 source code into the wild, or the paths trailed by other companies before UNIX clones won the server room. So just like with St. Thomas, apparently we need all those Rewrite in Safe Systems Language XVYZ, to bring the non-belivers into the righteous path. Which is anyway only half of the battle, as Joe Duffy points out in one of his talks, several developers on the WinDev team dimissed Midori efforts, even with the system running in front of them, providing them wrong in all their remarks about the system.
    - jbirer 4y ago
      I enjoy how defensive Rust fans are over their language, it's fun to poke at in my spare time. First of all, Rust is a great language with great ideas in my opinion, but not really fit for systems programming unless you mean on top of an OS like cd grep etc. I think most Rust fans have never written an embedded project or dabbled in lower level code so they assume that it's just perfect for low level. First you have to work around things like direct memory access, writing a "safe" wrapper around direct memory access doesn't really take it from unsafe to safe and you have to fight the language to do the things you have to do when doing kernel work. Then you have to deal with badly optimized output of the compiler which is fine in an user space program but a no-go in a kernel or even worse on embedded. I know some might say "well you aren't supposed to do that, you need X safety measure" but the hardware doesn't work like that, if you try to apply those concepts to out-of-order execution for example you will incur a heavy performance cost. tl;dr Rust fanboys should read some kernel device driver code and lower level code before giving their input
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Somehow Google has managed to ship drivers written in Rust since Android 12. I explicitly mentioned Safe Systems Language XVYZ, because the defensive reaction is to complain about Rust, as if systems programming languages safer than C didn't exist since 1958, with JOVIAL being one of the earliest ones worthy of mention.
      - forgotpwd16 4y ago
js4ever 4y ago
"In addition to the exciting technical changes, there is also organizational news to share. Redox OS received a donation of $400,000 (USD). This donation was anonymous, and the way in which it was made anonymous has made it not possible to use at this time. Presently, I am working with a legal team on determining specifically how the OFAC sanctions on Tornado Cash apply to this donation, which was made through Tornado Cash. At present, as I am a US citizen, I have blocked the transfer of this donation in order to comply with potential OFAC sanctions." Is it me or the author is overly cautious?
- voidfunc 4y ago
  It's wise to be cautious when it comes to anonymously donated money.
- edent 4y ago
  It is just you. Has that money come from a sanctioned person? Is it a drug dealer trying to launder funds? Is it from a hostile state? Is it really a bribe? Is it a mistake? When the auditors (or worse) come knocking, you want to be able to account for the source of funds in your projects.
  - js4ever 4y ago
    Unless you have a proof that the money come from illegal source can't you consider it innocent? Presumption of innocence ...
    - tadfisher 4y ago
      That is how you land in court in a case titled *United States v $400,000 in digital currency".
      - throwme_123 4y ago
        In which the main problem here is "United States", not the digital currency donation. US agencies have too many overreaching regulations like the OFAC one, together with a lot of fake regulations. The SEC was close to FTX and totally blind to the whole fraud operation that was going on. Likewise, many things in traditional finance markets (debt collaterization, etc.) are legal and regulated, but they're often nothing else but outright scams.
CameronNemo 4y ago
NVMe is supported (via nvmed) I've also heard of an experimental Rust NVMe implementation proposed for Linux. I wonder if and hope that these implementations can share code. Perhaps Fuchsia would wish to reuse portions as well. https://lwn.net/Articles/907685/ https://lwn.net/Articles/907685/
- wtallis 4y ago
  I'd only expect code sharing to be worthwhile if the interface between the NVMe driver and the rest of the OS's storage stack is quite similar. NVMe over PCIe is pretty simple, so there's not much logic that would be wholly contained within the driver itself.
_8j50 4y ago
I am guessing it can't run a browser right? But looking at its capability, what is it missing other than porting of the browser? I hope some rich person donates money to the Servo project, or if the devs can crowdsource funding, I wouldn't mind helping.
- forgotpwd16 4y ago
  It could run at least NetSurf about 4.5y ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzjQfocCIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzjQfocCIE
irusensei 4y ago
Can I download Cargo and compile/install things? That would be great but I've tried this a few weeks ago in an earlier version and those tools were not available from the package manager.
- jackpot51 4y ago
  cargo is really close to working. rustc is working.
  - stargateguy 4y ago
    Awesome news. Any ports to Risc-V or Openpower?
jackpot51 4y ago
Hello, I am Jeremy Soller, the creator of Redox OS. Let me know if you have any questions!
- stargateguy 4y ago
  Hi Jeremy I noticed a large number of laptops on the website. Are you going for a support a large number of devices(Microsoft&Linux) approach? I think you should go for an Apple/System76 approach. Less hardware, but fully supported. I would buy a tablet/laptop/desktop preinstalled with Redox.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    Counterpoint: I am a filthy casual and won't buy a computer just to run Redox, but I will try it out on a computer I own or in a VM just to kick the tires.
  - jackpot51 4y ago
    I prefer Redox OS to support as wide a set of hardware as possible.
    - stargateguy 4y ago
      I see. Oh well, good luck with the project.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33750810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33750810 My question is: is there any potential for sharing nvme code between a rust Linux driver and redox?
  - jackpot51 4y ago
    It is unlikely. The driver models are very different, ine being a microkernel, the other monolithic.
n8henrie 4y ago
I was trying to make an aarch64 RedoxOS VM a couple weeks ago and ran into some issues, eventually learning that aarch64 seemed like it was in better shape earlier and not quite there for 0.7 (or at least that was my impression). Eventually got it to cross-compile from an x86 box but it then wouldn't accept the default login for some reason (an x86 vm worked fine). Will have to give it another shot and see how far I get with 0.8!

117 points by sbt567 4y ago

From the docs: > Redox is a general purpose operating system written in pure Rust. Our aim is to provide a fully functioning Unix-like microkernel, that is both secure and free. > We have modest compatibility with POSIX, allowing Redox to run many programs without porting. > We take inspiration from Plan9, Minix, Linux, and BSD. Redox aims to synthesize years of research and hard won experience into a system that feels modern and familiar.

twelvechairs 4y ago

Previous post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33724712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33724712

Shared404 4y ago

Redox is a project I'm very interested in. I think it has the capability to be the next "just a small hobby project".

darthrupert 4y ago
The problem perhaps is that it's mostly a RIIR project. Then again, Rust has given birth to a lot of those that ended up veing pretty great. Like ripgrep.
- ilaksh 4y ago
  It's clear that C is a dated language that leads to numerous security problems. It is inevitable that we will switch to OS's written in Rust or similar safe languages, or will see most of Linux rewritten.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    It was already dated when compared against something like Modula-2 (1978), pity that OS vendors decided to go with UNIX clones.
- forgotpwd16 4y ago
  I wouldn't call it a RiiR. It takes inspiration from other projects (namely Minix, Plan9, and ZFS for the filesystem) but is otherwise it's own thing and makes some interesting design decisions (e.g. being URL-centered).
- pjmlp 4y ago
  The problem with some C belivers is that they lack the imagination to accept how systems programming used to be like before Bell Labs released UNIX V6 source code into the wild, or the paths trailed by other companies before UNIX clones won the server room. So just like with St. Thomas, apparently we need all those Rewrite in Safe Systems Language XVYZ, to bring the non-belivers into the righteous path. Which is anyway only half of the battle, as Joe Duffy points out in one of his talks, several developers on the WinDev team dimissed Midori efforts, even with the system running in front of them, providing them wrong in all their remarks about the system.
  - jbirer 4y ago
    I enjoy how defensive Rust fans are over their language, it's fun to poke at in my spare time. First of all, Rust is a great language with great ideas in my opinion, but not really fit for systems programming unless you mean on top of an OS like cd grep etc. I think most Rust fans have never written an embedded project or dabbled in lower level code so they assume that it's just perfect for low level. First you have to work around things like direct memory access, writing a "safe" wrapper around direct memory access doesn't really take it from unsafe to safe and you have to fight the language to do the things you have to do when doing kernel work. Then you have to deal with badly optimized output of the compiler which is fine in an user space program but a no-go in a kernel or even worse on embedded. I know some might say "well you aren't supposed to do that, you need X safety measure" but the hardware doesn't work like that, if you try to apply those concepts to out-of-order execution for example you will incur a heavy performance cost. tl;dr Rust fanboys should read some kernel device driver code and lower level code before giving their input
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Somehow Google has managed to ship drivers written in Rust since Android 12. I explicitly mentioned Safe Systems Language XVYZ, because the defensive reaction is to complain about Rust, as if systems programming languages safer than C didn't exist since 1958, with JOVIAL being one of the earliest ones worthy of mention.
    - forgotpwd16 4y ago

js4ever 4y ago

"In addition to the exciting technical changes, there is also organizational news to share. Redox OS received a donation of $400,000 (USD). This donation was anonymous, and the way in which it was made anonymous has made it not possible to use at this time. Presently, I am working with a legal team on determining specifically how the OFAC sanctions on Tornado Cash apply to this donation, which was made through Tornado Cash. At present, as I am a US citizen, I have blocked the transfer of this donation in order to comply with potential OFAC sanctions." Is it me or the author is overly cautious?

voidfunc 4y ago
It's wise to be cautious when it comes to anonymously donated money.
edent 4y ago
It is just you. Has that money come from a sanctioned person? Is it a drug dealer trying to launder funds? Is it from a hostile state? Is it really a bribe? Is it a mistake? When the auditors (or worse) come knocking, you want to be able to account for the source of funds in your projects.
- js4ever 4y ago
  Unless you have a proof that the money come from illegal source can't you consider it innocent? Presumption of innocence ...
  - tadfisher 4y ago
    That is how you land in court in a case titled *United States v $400,000 in digital currency".
    - throwme_123 4y ago
      In which the main problem here is "United States", not the digital currency donation. US agencies have too many overreaching regulations like the OFAC one, together with a lot of fake regulations. The SEC was close to FTX and totally blind to the whole fraud operation that was going on. Likewise, many things in traditional finance markets (debt collaterization, etc.) are legal and regulated, but they're often nothing else but outright scams.

CameronNemo 4y ago

NVMe is supported (via nvmed) I've also heard of an experimental Rust NVMe implementation proposed for Linux. I wonder if and hope that these implementations can share code. Perhaps Fuchsia would wish to reuse portions as well. https://lwn.net/Articles/907685/ https://lwn.net/Articles/907685/

wtallis 4y ago
I'd only expect code sharing to be worthwhile if the interface between the NVMe driver and the rest of the OS's storage stack is quite similar. NVMe over PCIe is pretty simple, so there's not much logic that would be wholly contained within the driver itself.

_8j50 4y ago

I am guessing it can't run a browser right? But looking at its capability, what is it missing other than porting of the browser? I hope some rich person donates money to the Servo project, or if the devs can crowdsource funding, I wouldn't mind helping.

forgotpwd16 4y ago
It could run at least NetSurf about 4.5y ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzjQfocCIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzjQfocCIE

irusensei 4y ago

Can I download Cargo and compile/install things? That would be great but I've tried this a few weeks ago in an earlier version and those tools were not available from the package manager.

jackpot51 4y ago
cargo is really close to working. rustc is working.
- stargateguy 4y ago
  Awesome news. Any ports to Risc-V or Openpower?

jackpot51 4y ago

Hello, I am Jeremy Soller, the creator of Redox OS. Let me know if you have any questions!

stargateguy 4y ago
Hi Jeremy I noticed a large number of laptops on the website. Are you going for a support a large number of devices(Microsoft&Linux) approach? I think you should go for an Apple/System76 approach. Less hardware, but fully supported. I would buy a tablet/laptop/desktop preinstalled with Redox.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  Counterpoint: I am a filthy casual and won't buy a computer just to run Redox, but I will try it out on a computer I own or in a VM just to kick the tires.
- jackpot51 4y ago
  I prefer Redox OS to support as wide a set of hardware as possible.
  - stargateguy 4y ago
    I see. Oh well, good luck with the project.
CameronNemo 4y ago
See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33750810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33750810 My question is: is there any potential for sharing nvme code between a rust Linux driver and redox?
- jackpot51 4y ago
  It is unlikely. The driver models are very different, ine being a microkernel, the other monolithic.

n8henrie 4y ago

I was trying to make an aarch64 RedoxOS VM a couple weeks ago and ran into some issues, eventually learning that aarch64 seemed like it was in better shape earlier and not quite there for 0.7 (or at least that was my impression). Eventually got it to cross-compile from an x86 box but it then wouldn't accept the default login for some reason (an x86 vm worked fine). Will have to give it another shot and see how far I get with 0.8!