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Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE
- pyrophane 4y agoKeep in mind that with Gore-TEX you still have to sacrifice a lot of breathe-ability. If you don't need something to be waterproof, you may be happier with a non-waterproof alternative. I've found that to be particularly true of shoes.
- williamscales 4y agoThe Gore-TEX membrane in the shoe also tends to break down quite quickly. Think on the order of months if worn daily.
- trillic 4y agoYup, Gore-TEX shoes don't stay waterproof long enough to justify the cost in my mind. If I know my feet are going to be wet for 6+ hours I go with my shoes-with-drain and waterproof socks, over N layers of thin wool socks depending on temperature. I have only replaced the socks twice because I don't use em too much. I've found for offshore sailing or backpacking in the wet that Sealskinz (not gore-tex) are the best. Still wearing gore-tex bibs and top anytime there's any wet.
- tra3 4y agoThat’s brilliant. I imagine waterproof socks also keep the moisture in as well? Is it worth it?
- Thlom 4y agoOn expeditions in extreme conditions managing moisture is half the job. I read an interview with Børge Ousland (polar explorer, crossed the north pole in winter conditions on ski in 2019) about how he plans and executes expeditions. He use a thin wool sock, then a plastic bag(!), then a thick wool sock (or several wool socks) inside his shoes. So the inner sock will be wet by sweat, but the plastic bag stops the moisture so the thick wool sock and shoes are kept dry. Then at night he can dry the thin wool sock by keeping it close to his body. He also sleeps in a plastic bag inside the sleeping bag to keep moisture out of the sleeping bag. It's quite interesting how these extreme expeditions work. They have to spend much of the time in the tent brushing ice off clothes, shoes, the tent itself, equipment and so on, because if the ice melts it will freeze again and shit will get ruined.
- weinzierl 4y agoIt's pretty popular in Germany and the name and logo is often found on outdoor clothing. I always wondered if the name is the same in English speaking countries, or if it's different because of its negative connotations. Apparently it's just a not too uncommon family name (Al Gore comes to mind) and also used as brand name in English speaking countries. People get so upset about Toot and Coq and Gimp, but Gore seems totally OK. As a second language learner, no matter how long you learn, you will never know what's in a native speakers head.
- sswezey 4y agoIt's quite popular in the US as well, marketed as Gore-TEX.
- datavirtue 4y agoThe company has a very interesting organizational model. One I have seen in other employee owned companies where the supervisors and managers are chosen by the team (workers).
- askvictor 4y agoVery popular in Australia too; 10-20 years ago it was the only brand for serious outdoor enthusiasts, but now there's a lot of competition
- blacksmith_tb 4y agoPopular, but also reputed to lean on manufacturers to use its waterproof fabrics and no others, or else: https://gearinstitute.com/ftc-investigates-gore-tex-business-practices/ https://gearinstitute.com/ftc-investigates-gore-tex-business... https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/insane-membrane/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/insane-membrane/
- copperx 4y agoBut is it pronounced GORE-teks or gore-TEK?
- 4y ago
- sudosysgen 4y agoIt's a nice material, but recently nanospun fabrics like neoshell, ascentshell and futurelight have come out and I personally find they work much much better
- aeontech 4y agoAny particular brands you recommend? Is this something worthwhile for everyday wear, or this is mainly for outdoor sports enthusiasts?
- watersb 4y agoI purchased a North Face jacket at their factory store in Berkeley, mid-1990s, the Gore Tex "Mountain Light" and a fleece "Denali" inner jacket. It fit me really well, for a 30-year anniversary I decided to get a new one last week. They still make the same design. The new one uses their nano-spun FutureLight fabric, rather than a three-layer nylon(?)/GoreTex sandwich. It's much more soft, like a woven fabric rather than plastic hard shell, and it seems to be much less weight. I really like it. I got to try out Marmot's take on next-gen shell technology a couple of years ago. Half the weight of my 20th century jacket, very effective. The particular jacket I tried didn't fit me as well as the Mountain Light, but I suspect that most people would prefer Marmot's version: more simple, lightweight, everyday tech. Some things were great 30 years ago; the fleece Denali is essentially the same. The outer layer is much improved. (And I noticed that the zippers are way better, overall. I bet there's been decades of improvement in plastics (sorry, "polycarbonate") engineering.)
- johnwalkr 4y agoWhy did you correct to polycarbonate, a narrow category of plastics? Plastics is a very broad descriptor suitable for capturing all kinds of improvements in plastics and I don’t think any zippers are even made from polycarbonate.
- throwaway821909 4y agoSome companies, you can tell, have realised the word plastic has negative connotations and try to avoid it, normally they'll use the word polycarbonate instead, I think that was what they were playing on. (I myself hadn't realised it wasn't always possible to substitute in that way).
- zaps 4y agoCan never not think of this whenever I hear “Gore-TEX” https://youtu.be/lt6KRKHpKhY https://youtu.be/lt6KRKHpKhY
- jcampbell1 4y agoThe interesting thing about Gore-TEX is that is no longer patented, and is merely a licensed trademark that brands pay for. The Gore company certifies the designs, and it goes well beyond stretched PTFE. They require a final level of breathability, waterproof seams, various construction techniques, etc. Bob Gore is known for being a savvy businessman, and this is one example of how to turn a 20 year patent into a 100 year revenue stream.
- UncleOxidant 4y agoIs this why I'm not seeing a lot of rain gear with Gore-Tex anymore? It seemed like it was pretty common about 20 years back which would coincide with the patent still being in effect.
- hyperhopper 4y agoThe thing is, the brand means a lot here. I've tried probably a majority of the major alternatives. Every winter sports company will claim their version of goretex is just as good, but they all fall short, usually waterproofing, or sometimes they just suffer from the garbage bag effect. Either way, I've spent hundreds of dollars on too many copycats to ever bother with non-goretex again. It's not financially worth it
- jcampbell1 4y agoI agree with everything you said, and the Gore company is in the business of certifying the jacket will perform well. That being said, for fishing where you are going to get fish guts everywhere, lots of people are now wearing this super cheap Frogg Toggs brand rather than rubbers. There is a place for super cheap PTFE gear.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y agoDon't know if it's the same, these days, but when I was more "outdoorsy," having the Gore-TEX™ label on something always at least doubled the price. We usually considered it to be worth it.
- le-mark 4y agoIsn’t it actually “water resistant” though? I spent a lot of nights cold and wet in gore-Tex gear. It would stay dry for a few hours but always soak through.
- ryeights 4y agoIt is, but after a certain point the face fabric becomes saturated with water and breathability drops to ~zero. At that point your body’s own moisture can no longer escape through the jacket and you become wet from the inside.
- loeg 4y agoThat's true of the 3-layer designs (the inner layer is goretex but the outer protective layer can soak through eventually). There are newer products that are only two layers and goretex is the outer layer (under the "Shakedry" brand). Those don't have an outer fabric to saturate with water, so they stay breathable better.
- torstenvl 4y agoIt's waterproof if you maintain it. There's special detergent and whatnot. We use Gore-TEX jackets in the Marines, and in the field you can tell who washed their gear correctly and who didn't.
- jakub_g 4y agoThe term to google is "durable water repellent" (DWR). In sport shops you can buy sprays or washing liquids to treat the jackets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durable_water_repellent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durable_water_repellent Also note each jacket has a different thickness of the gore-tex layer which conditions how many hours of rain it can withstand.
- whateveracct 4y agoI love my goretex converse high tops
- samwillis 4y agoThe article doesn't mention (other than a brief nod to the brand) the other massive use of PTFE, none sticks surfaces originally under the Teflon brand, most commonly found on cookware. It truly is a "magic" material. Teflon and other PTFE based none stick surfaces are now really quite controversial due to the toxic gasses they can give off of you heat them too high. And the manufacturing processes is potentially linked to a higher risk of cancer for workers. The industry is now moving away from PTFE to other materials for none stick surfaces, however although they proclaim these are "safe", they have been studied far less. I believe some evidence is indicative of them also having serious issues.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoActually, Teflon on pans and cooking. Where is quite bad. It flakes off quite easily and you just ingest it. Go with ceramic, it’s much better for you. This is just one search result, there are many This is just one search result, there are many: https://www.foxnews.com/health/non-stick-pans-could-release-millions-microplastic-particles-possible-health-concern-study-says https://www.foxnews.com/health/non-stick-pans-could-release-...
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y agoYour links would probably be taken more seriously here if they weren't to foxnews.com. Personally I didn't even click on it just because of that, which is a shame because you made me interested up until then.
- jiggawatts 4y agoTeflon is harmless if ingested. The whole point of it is that it is chemically inert.
- IsTom 4y agoNot saying that teflon is bad when ingested, but asbestos and glass are also chemically inert and it doesn't make them ok to ingest.
- exabrial 4y agoI recently learned in order for a product to have the Gore-Tex label, not only do you have to license the process/formula from them, but you have to send engineering samples to them and they perform their own independent testing before allowing you to actually sell the product. There’s no doubt part of the success is the chemistry of the product, but the required independent testing to very high standards also likely plays a large part in the quality of the final products.
- starefossen 4y agoFrom what I have herd (but I was unable to find any written source at this point) the sampling only applies to the Gore-Tex Pro Shell brand. Meaning that products needs to be sent in and certified by Gore before they can be sold under that name.
- gorbypark 4y agoI don’t have any sources to back this up, but I’ve heard that Gore Tex Pro is actually complete fabrics supplied by Gore. “Regular” Gore-Tex has the face and backing layers added by the manufacturer, where Gore Tex Pro comes with the face and backing layers. The Pro fabrics also require being sewn in a “Gore certified” factory. A lot of this is just rumours and hearsay picked up from living in a resort town, lots of discussions about Gore Tex!
- ethbr0 4y agoThe sampling for "regular" Gore-TEX (read: layers added by manufacturer) makes sense from a product standpoint. If your selling point is waterproofness, and waterproofness can be destroyed by bad assembly... assembly is directly linked to your perceived product value.
- gorbypark 4y agoNot only that, but Gore will honour their “guaranteed to keep you dry” warranty. I had a Gore-Tex jacket that the manufacturer refused to replace after it delaminated about 3 years after I bought it. One call to Gore and I got the purchase price of the jacket in a prepaid credit card sent to me after sending them the jacket.
- kabes 4y agoI used to have lot of gore-tex clothes, but recently got some 'Dermizax' fabric stuff and these are a big improvement in my experience.
- aynyc 4y agoJust a side note, getting Gore-tex labeled product also means you get warranty from Gore-Tex, kinda like Patagonia label. My old ski jacket (Marmot) has de-laminated zipper that Marmot refused warranty on. I contacted Gore-Tex, they took the jacket in and send me a newer model of the same jacket.
- BiteCode_dev 4y agoWonderful fabric for mountain gear. Unfortunately, like Teflon cooking pans, its amazing properties come from a coating with perfluorinated octyl sulfonate, a known endocrine disruptor: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7722801/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7722801/
- VygmraMGVl 4y agoThe title says this is expanded PTFE, which seems like it wouldn't need an additional PFOTS coating. I doubt it would shed similar small molecules to a PFOTS coating as it's a different material (polymerized tetrafluoroethylene). I also doubt you would get similar endocrine disruption with PTFE polymerization biproducts since you won't have the "polar head/fluorinated tail" structure that PFOTS has.
- dylan604 4y agoSetting aside the issues from waste during the manufacturing process and the messes that have been made (see 3M plants for example), is the actual Gore-tex product itself hazardous? Like, how much of the material do you have to eat, and how edible is the Gore-tex product? I get Teflon coatings scratching and getting mixed with the prepared food, but I typically don't go around gnawing on my clothing. Does Gore-tex leach anything that can absorbed by the skin while wearing it?
- kragen 4y agoprobably not
- lowestprimate 4y agoBase material for GoreTex is PTFE is implantable so probably pretty safe.
- mint2 4y agoOn the other hand all Americans have pfas in their blood so maybe it’s overused
- benj111 4y agoAm I the only one that assumed this was some kind of LaTex thing, and got increasingly confused about the increasingly hip Silicon Valley lingo. "Yeah man, the latest AI NFT food delivery app plugin is totally waterproof"
- WirelessGigabit 4y agoAs someone who lives in SoCal I'm astonished by the amount of shoes sold here which are GTX. I always think they don't breathe as good as just normal shoes. Thoughts?
- simlan 4y agoYep using that material makes the breathability suffer. No comparison to other water restiant materials which are worse. If I were in your region I would not buy water restiant shoes to begin with.
- loeg 4y agoYeah, you don't need GoreTex stuff in SoCal.
- gorbypark 4y agoAnecdotally, they definitely don’t breath as well as shoes without, which is to be expected give n the properties of gore-tex. Since Gore-Tex needs to be kept clean and washed regularity, my theory is the shoes will perform well in a lab/testing but in the real world will get dirty and “plugged” up pretty quick. Shoes are gonna see a ton of dirt compared to a jacket. I avoid Gore-Tex foot wear unless it’s for a winter mountaineering and waterproofness is essential.
- dendrite9 4y agoI think they are selling based on the brand name. I bought a few GTX versions before concluding that for me it isn't worth the cost. Clothes are much easier to wash and keeping clean so the membrane can perform.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- throwawaaarrgh 4y agoit's just too bad that once the inside of a goretex product gets wet it takes twice as long for it to dry. don't take goretex on long multi day excursions if there's a chance of getting soaked
- robotresearcher 4y agoTwice as long as what?
- xyst 4y agoisn't this stuff in the same family as the "forever chemicals"?
- nwiswell 4y agoYep these are fluoropolymers. But I'm not sure how much that really matters... a regular un-fluoridated polymer like polyethylene that sticks around for a thousand years is not all that different in practice from a fluoropolymer that will stick around for a million years. If they're not recycled they go to landfill. Maybe more to the point, I'd much prefer to contaminate the environment with inert chemicals with a million year lifespan than with toxic or bio-accumulating chemicals with a thousand year lifespan, and the good news is that the longevity of fluoropolymers is due to their total lack of reactivity.
- mint2 4y agoExcept there’s many routes ptfe can turn harmful. If it burns it turns into horrible stuff. Guess it shouldn’t be used in California. And just as with polyethylene, additives like plasticizers and various other components added for processing can be a big issue. They used to use pfoa for helping process Teflon. Who knows what they use now. It’s probably unwise to be overly trusting.
- nwiswell 4y agoAll of this is true but it's totally unrelated to the fact that fluoropolymers are forever chemicals. Fluoropolymers themselves are harmless, even if their byproducts are not necessarily. And presumably the compounds of concern you've highlighted are actually not forever chemicals.
- stoddardlabs 4y agoAre there any good brands that sell Gore-TEX jackets without branding on the outside of the jacket?
- kojeovo 4y agoAlso used in plastic surgery!
- reader_x 4y agoHow? Say more please!
- lowestprimate 4y agohttps://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant
- jerlam 4y agoGore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pants and shoes. Then people think they need WPB head to toe, which is like wearing a big ziploc bag. I had a friend come on a hike with me wearing a three layer Gore-TEX jacket on a warm, completely clear day. I think he began to overheat with it (wearing a sweatshirt underneath) while in the parking lot, before we even got on the trail. He ended up carrying it the entire way. I used to bike commute and walk in the rain, long before even knowing Gore-TEX existed. Being warm is more important than being dry (if you're not in subzero temperatures). Wool and synthetics will keep you warm even if they're wet - I've spent a fair amount of time soaking wet but feeling fine. And stuff will dry out quickly when you're wearing it indoors. If you're a mountaineer, sure - use Gore-TEX if being cold and wet is likely going to kill you. And don't forget all the other layers. But for normal people, we don't need it.
- dleslie 4y agoIn the PNW, particularly here in BC, Gore-TEX was an absolute game-changer for hikers. Throw on a tank top or tee-shirt, then your Gore-TEX jacket, and you could climb basically any local mountain between March and October, rain or shine. Every local hike went from being a moist, uncomfortable affair to being a joy regardless of the weather.
- sammalloy 4y agoI had the same experience, except in the Sierra Nevada which doesn’t have conditions as extreme as yours. I had one of the original Gore-TEX ski jacket shells from The North Face, but got rid of it after a few months because it was too warm. It was insanely expensive when it came out.
- morsch 4y agoWhat about rain shedding off your jacket onto your pants? This has totally been an issue for me and in inclement weather I wear (non breathable) rain pants (apparently the right word is bibs). Then again you only say to put on a t-shirt and a jacket, no mention of pants -- I guess that's one way to solve the problem.
- eternityforest 4y agoI'm surprised we don't have active waterproofing by now, like a tiny belt pack that maintains a really thin inflatable layer with just enough leakage to dry you off. I guess people might not trust anything active in a situation where getting wet could be dangerous, but in a city it seems like it could be a cool way to make waterproofing that never wears out as long as the air pump works.
- DietaryNonsense 4y agoYou like saying Gore-TEX, don't you?
- DietaryNonsense 4y agohttps://youtu.be/0e58SiFSxLs?t=25 https://youtu.be/0e58SiFSxLs?t=25
- brap 4y agoTIL Gore-TEX from Seinfeld is a real thing
- ab_testing 4y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e58SiFSxLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e58SiFSxLs
- alfor 4y agoI didn’t know Gore-TEX was ptfe. Damn, those things last forever (like BPC). Think plastic is a problem? PTFE is way worse. Those are the microplastic we are going to find in breastmilk forever.
- qbasic_forever 4y agoYeah a lot of outdoor manufacturers have been trying to make more eco friendly waterproof gear that doesnt use PTFE. Patagonia in particular has been really trying hard to get rid of their use of them: https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/ptfe-polytetrafluoroethylene.html https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/ptfe-polytetrafluoro... From what I understand the gear that doesn't use PTFE is unfortunately still not great or have the long term durability as goretex. Hopefully soon they'll figure out a good replacement!
- Maxion 4y agoKlättermusens Cutan fabric performs quite well. Especially compared with Gore.
- userbinator 4y agoPTFE is also used in implants specifically because it completely inert under normal conditions.
- jjtheblunt 4y agowhich sorts of implants? i know, for another example, some orthopedic screws are actually calcium which are made to reabsorb, which i have 3 of myself from an athletic injury repair by an NFL team surgeon (maybe relevant if the materials change for type of repair).
- userbinator 4y agohttp://www.nanomedicine.com/NMIIA/15.3.4.3.htm http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMIIA/15.3.4.3.htm
- tppiotrowski 4y agoI've never been sold on Gore-Tex. It's not a great value for most people. Shoes: good for a few outings (really nice on snow) but then lose their water repellency. If you have sweaty feet, your socks will get wet from sweat anyways. Just bring extra socks or wring them out periodically. Wool socks will feel warm even when wet. Jackets: great in a downpour but if you're wearing pants, all the water just rolls off your jacket and soaks your pants. Use a weather forecast and just don't go or choose another location if it's going to be pouring out and instead settle for a much lighter water repellent layer for 100s of $$$'s cheaper that works in a light rain or snow. I use the OR Helium. Packs real small. Otherwise, if your job requires you to stand in the rain all day, definitely invest the $$$.
- MivLives 4y agoWhat is wild to me is the only brandname use of gore-tex I have on my wardrobe is a pair of Converse All Stars. Talk about a shoe that really does not need water proofing.
- jcadam 4y agoStill have some Gore-TEX gear I bought years ago while I was in the army (including a pair of Matterhorn boots). It works well up here in Alaska.
- gumby 4y agoSince this is HN: WL Gore’s management practices are quite unusual as well. A brief summary: https://www.managementexchange.com/story/innovation-democracy-wl-gores-original-management-model https://www.managementexchange.com/story/innovation-democrac...
- ericmathison 4y agoAndy Skurka has a good writeup on why Gore-Tex is mostly hype: https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of-hype-tm/ https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of...
- tra3 4y agoI’m nowhere near as accomplished as skurka, but I have some back country experience and I agree with him completely. Cheaper waterproof (not breathable) layers with ventilation (pit zips on jackets and full length zippers on pants) is the way to go. Paying premium for GORE-TEX has not been worth it in my experience.
- dilyevsky 4y agoMaybe for hiking. When working hard in more extreme conditions like trail running in the mountains, ice climbing, etc the difference between those cheap shells and real gore-tex or alternative like eVent is striking
- fknorangesite 4y agoThanks. HN definitely needs more anti-astroturf action.
- macNchz 4y agoI'm an avid hiker/backpacker/runner and tend to agree re Gore-Tex clothing, but I do like having it in footwear for hiking in wet areas. It very obviously doesn't breathe as well as advertised, and I'd never want to wear a GTX jacket or pants while working up a sweat, but on muddy 20+ mile hikes with friends whose breathable mesh trail runners got wet and stayed wet all day, my feet have always been in way better shape wearing GTX hiking shoes. For shorter, sweaty trail runs, though, I'd take the mesh over Gore-Tex all day.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y agoI find that an immensely shallow write up. Yes, GT is not 100% waterproof. It's also not breathable like cotton or untreated polyester. However, the right path IMO is to compare GT to the alternatives, and when you do this it is absolutely clear to me that it's better. More waterproof than very breathable fabrics, more breathable than very waterproof fabrics. The former get you (very) wet from the outside, the latter get you (very) wet from the inside; GT gets you a bit wet from both. Nobody has made the "perfect" fabric for wet conditions because it likely cannot exist. The fact that GT is not this mythical "perfect" fabric does not, for me, detract very much from it being measurably and experientially superior to the alternatives.
- sfmike 4y agoI'm fond of cordura its sort of military material and waterproof and a lot of bags i've gotten in japan and taiwan are quite fond of this as well. Its a really strong cloth based design but sort of militaristic. big fan!
- snowwrestler 4y agoCordura is just a brand name for a particular way of weaving nylon thread into a fabric.
- DavidVoid 4y agoIf you want a water resistant fabric with fewer chemical/environmental issues, look into Fjällräven's G-1000 fabric [1]. Instead of using PTFE, it's just a cotton-polyester blend waxed with Greenland wax (which is just beeswax and paraffin). [1] https://www.fjallraven.com/us/en-us/about/our-materials/g1000 https://www.fjallraven.com/us/en-us/about/our-materials/g100...
- Animats 4y agoIt's interesting that the material turns into a fluffy mostly-air material when pulled hard. There's a long history of materials that suddenly change properties when processed mechanically in an unusual way. Tungsten: one of the early breakthroughs was when General Electric figured out how to make ductile tungsten wire and coil it. Tungsten powder is compressed into slugs, which are forced through successively smaller dies. At some point, ductility appears. The rods can then be pulled through still smaller dies until very fine wire appears. This is how incandescent light bulbs were made. (Revisionist history of the light bulb: In 1840, Warren de la Rue invented the light bulb. Basic concept: use a coil of thin wire with a very high melting point. He used platinum. Worked fine, cost too much. Then there was a detour through carbonized paper led by Edison. Not as good, but cheaper. Then, in 1905, William Coolidge figured out how to make tungsten ductile. Now de la Rue's approach was affordable. Carbonized paper was abandoned.) Steel: It's been known since ancient times that you could heat up a piece of iron and punch a hole through it, widening the piece at that point. That concept can be taken to an extreme. Within a narrow temperature range, you can push a piercer through a long steel bar endwise and turn it into a pipe.[1] That's how thick-walled pipe is made. Food: The Beyond Meat process is more mechanical than chemical. The basic feedstock is peas. The trick that gives it a meaty texture involves extrusion with both steam and cold. The exact process is proprietary but not that complicated. This is an area where development has historically required either a huge amount of tries or a lucky accident. Which makes one wonder what new tricks can be found that way by hooking up machine learning to hydrodynamic simulation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_piercing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_piercing
- snowwrestler 4y agoI find that most writing about Gore-Tex gets the mechanism of breathability wrong. Often I’ll see references to humidity or air pressure. I also see tons of statements that Gore-Tex can’t breathe if the DWR fails. None of that is correct. Water moves through Gore-Tex via evaporation, and the driver is heat. As long as it is warmer on one side of the membrane than the other, moisture will move toward the colder side. This works even if both sides of the membrane are in direct contact with liquid water. The ePTFE of Gore-Tex is like an open-cell foam, or an extremely dense net, whose holes are small enough to exclude liquid water drops, but huge compared to water molecules. It is not one-dimensional; it has thickness. It creates essentially a thin captive atmosphere within the membrane, through which water vapor can move. If the membrane is immersed on both sides, water will be evaporating into the captive atmosphere within the membrane from both directions. Water vapor will also be condensing out of that atmosphere in both directions. So if one side is warmer than the other, there will be a net transfer of water from the warm to the cold side. On the warmer side it will be a bit easier for water to evaporate; on the cold side, a bit easier for it to condense. In Gore-Tex the inner side of the ePTFE is mated to hydrophilic polyurethane (PU). This is to protect the ePTFE from oils and grease from our disgusting skin. So water vapor is soaked up by the PU, and once the PU is saturated, the water starts evaporating from the PU in both directions. But again, as long as there is a heat gradient, it will result in net moisture movement from warm to cold.
- account-5 4y agoI've had and goretex gear in the military and for hillwalking. I've always found the footwear to be too hot and causes my feet to sweat so much I get borderline trench foot. Waterproof wise it's only slightly better than non-goretex. My personal opinion is the price isn't worth it. For wet weather I'll stick with wellies, good socks and a poncho.
- morsch 4y agoMy feet get hot in my GTX boots, but they also get hot in almost everything else when I'm walking for hours on end. Overall, the boots are not the worst experience, and I can pretty comfortably wear them all day for a week, maybe because I tend to wear better socks in them. Sandals and mesh sneakers are better in terms of heat, but not an option for many hiking trails (ymmv). And obviously not water proof.
- adnanc 4y agoHaving used a number of Gore-Tex products over the last 20 years, the breathability does suffer after some time. For cycling, I’ve been using the Rapha Shadow range [0] which has been brilliant. It is on the expensive side but definitely worth it. [0] https://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/stories/shadow-revolution https://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/stories/shadow-revolution
- unixhero 4y agoIn cold climates, having Goretex on the outer layer is key.
- lvl102 4y agoI found Gore-TEX to be not durable enough. I sometimes have to go through several shells to find one that’s made right. And we’re talking about technical shells that cost hundreds of dollars from reputable clothing companies. And these companies often get away with it because 999/1000 of the purchases are not used in intended environments. People will never find out that their shells leak.
- ethbr0 4y agoGore-TEX stuff is like all adventure products -- if they only sold it to people who really used it, their market would be < 1/10th the size and the price would be >10x. So rejoice in well-funded, status-posturing, subsidizing rubes!
- bobcattz 4y agoUninstall goretex T
- lowkey 4y agoImportant to note that the Gore-TEX membrane is made from PFAS, a forever chemical that is absolutely destroying the health of virtually every living thing on the planet. Correction: As of 2022, Gore-TEX will no longer use PFAS in their membrane [0] however PFAS will continue to be used in the durable water-resistant coating [1]. Why PFAS are so concerning: 1. PFAS and PFOA are known as forever chemicals because they virtually never break down under normal conditions and therefore bio-accumulate in all living organisms. 2. 99% of Americans are known to have toxic levels of PFAS or PFOS in their blood. Toxic levels of PFAS are found in rainwater all over the world - even Antarctica and Tibet. There is no rainwater anywhere in the world that is safe to drink. 3. There is no known safe level of PFAS/PFOS in the system. The EPA currently rates the recommended level at under 0.04 parts per trillion. The best testing methods can only measure as low as 4 parts per trillion. 4. PFAS are known to cause an incredible number of diseases including various cancers, obesity, liver disease, thyroid disease, kidney disfunction, and a wide range of fertility issues in both the parents and the children. [0] https://www.gore-tex.com/pressroom/press-release/responsibility-sustainability/gore-completes-elimination-of-pfoa-from-raw-material-of-its-functional-fabrics https://www.gore-tex.com/pressroom/press-release/responsibil... [1] https://toxicfreefuture.org/press-room/gore-tex-manufacturer-announces-availability-of-new-pfas-free-membrane-but-still-uses-forever-chemicals-to-make-its-outdoor-apparel-and-gear/ https://toxicfreefuture.org/press-room/gore-tex-manufacturer...