4 ms·

That's the thing, what do you actually get vs. what Twitter was providing anyway? And layoffs are definitely possible in every country. To take Germany as an e

That's the thing, what do you actually get vs. what Twitter was providing anyway? And layoffs are definitely possible in every country. To take Germany as an example, since my sibling already mentioned it. You absolutely can do layoffs in Germany. There can be "complications" like a workers council (Betriebsrat), unions are a thing (read: https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Mitarbeiter-in-Deutschland-wehren-sich-gegen-Kuendigungen-7348373.html https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Mitarbeiter-in-Deutschland...) Now reading a bit about this online, I found https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-contract.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-co... which says this about severance that might get paid instead of large legal battles: This severance will often amount to 50% of the monthly salary per year of service How is that so much different from what Musk was going to give the "you're not going to have to come to work starting tomorrow" crowd that got 3 months full pay severance? I'm not saying Musk is right in how he's doing this. I absolutely don't. But the oft hailed worker's rights seem not to do much more than what Musk was giving most people anyway. Depending on tenure they maybe even got a better severance, while a 10 year employee might be better off fighting and then settling for the above (or better).

the_gipsy 4y ago
That's a different matter - the offered severance might be better than a plain "you stop working immediately" layoff, where they pay would be the remaining vacation days and all days equivalent to the notice period. But the severance offer must be laid out specifically for each worker, due to the above variation in days, plus whatever would be an extra bonus. The company can't legally say "I'll give everybody 30k" and let HR figure it out later. Or to be precise, a worker cannot accept that as official layoff notice and expect to have a legal claim on those 30k later. I think the right thing would have been something like, "accept immediate layoff with normal legal payout, plus everybody gets 20k" for EU workers (that number being 30k - estimated payout). But of course Elon didn't wanna run this through HR nor acknowledge that Twitter EU must comply with EU laws.
- tharkun__ 4y ago
  That's totally fair, I won't argue with that at all. The way he's doing this is very American "I will do whatever I want and I don't care about the consequences". The way he did it is absolutely going to trigger labour law violation lawsuits in various countries. What I'm very interested in is the difference in actual severance and worker's "morale" for lack of a better word. I.e. is it actually a better deal in the end? Since car manufacturers were mentioned elsewhere in the threads. These usually "play ball" and even when they wind stuff down they try to get people to leave on their own first, like retiring early and such and even creating "transfer companies" that help people re-skill. E.g. here an Opel plant shutdown in 2014: https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/werksschliessung-opel-beendet-autoproduktion-in-bochum-a-1006727.html https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/werksschliessu... But "betriebsbedingte Kündigungen" are a thing. Apparently 73% of people that loose their jobs in Germany have that happen to them: https://karrierebibel.de/betriebsbedingte-kundigung/ https://karrierebibel.de/betriebsbedingte-kundigung/ Basically if "the job is no longer available" then they can kick you out. If Musk wasn't an "I can do whatever I want", he could use that. Of course being Germany there are rules about that, like having to fire people based on social considerations and he doesn't care about that at all and he'd have to keep the kind of people he wants out if he played by the rules: the 46yo father of 3 that works the 8 hours of his contract vs. the 23yo kid right out of university that may just submit to Elon's macho ways. I bet this is the easiest for him too. Yeah it's gonna cost money for the lawyers to sort this all out after the fact. Meanwhile the people he wants out are gonna be out.
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    I agree he did what's easiest for him, and he will probably gonna get his way too - those who don't accept the (seemingly generous) severance package will be handled by HR/lawyers and be getting something less, probably. I personally would have not "accepted" the severance package, out of fear of losing my rights due to "voluntary resigning". The workers affected are also probably not like the typical Auto AG workers at all. They weren't working at twitter "for life", and can get a good job elsewhere fast.
  - Tainnor 4y ago

the_gipsy 4y ago

That's a different matter - the offered severance might be better than a plain "you stop working immediately" layoff, where they pay would be the remaining vacation days and all days equivalent to the notice period. But the severance offer must be laid out specifically for each worker, due to the above variation in days, plus whatever would be an extra bonus. The company can't legally say "I'll give everybody 30k" and let HR figure it out later. Or to be precise, a worker cannot accept that as official layoff notice and expect to have a legal claim on those 30k later. I think the right thing would have been something like, "accept immediate layoff with normal legal payout, plus everybody gets 20k" for EU workers (that number being 30k - estimated payout). But of course Elon didn't wanna run this through HR nor acknowledge that Twitter EU must comply with EU laws.

tharkun__ 4y ago
That's totally fair, I won't argue with that at all. The way he's doing this is very American "I will do whatever I want and I don't care about the consequences". The way he did it is absolutely going to trigger labour law violation lawsuits in various countries. What I'm very interested in is the difference in actual severance and worker's "morale" for lack of a better word. I.e. is it actually a better deal in the end? Since car manufacturers were mentioned elsewhere in the threads. These usually "play ball" and even when they wind stuff down they try to get people to leave on their own first, like retiring early and such and even creating "transfer companies" that help people re-skill. E.g. here an Opel plant shutdown in 2014: https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/werksschliessung-opel-beendet-autoproduktion-in-bochum-a-1006727.html https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/werksschliessu... But "betriebsbedingte Kündigungen" are a thing. Apparently 73% of people that loose their jobs in Germany have that happen to them: https://karrierebibel.de/betriebsbedingte-kundigung/ https://karrierebibel.de/betriebsbedingte-kundigung/ Basically if "the job is no longer available" then they can kick you out. If Musk wasn't an "I can do whatever I want", he could use that. Of course being Germany there are rules about that, like having to fire people based on social considerations and he doesn't care about that at all and he'd have to keep the kind of people he wants out if he played by the rules: the 46yo father of 3 that works the 8 hours of his contract vs. the 23yo kid right out of university that may just submit to Elon's macho ways. I bet this is the easiest for him too. Yeah it's gonna cost money for the lawyers to sort this all out after the fact. Meanwhile the people he wants out are gonna be out.
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  I agree he did what's easiest for him, and he will probably gonna get his way too - those who don't accept the (seemingly generous) severance package will be handled by HR/lawyers and be getting something less, probably. I personally would have not "accepted" the severance package, out of fear of losing my rights due to "voluntary resigning". The workers affected are also probably not like the typical Auto AG workers at all. They weren't working at twitter "for life", and can get a good job elsewhere fast.
- Tainnor 4y ago