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Twitter’s US HR department seems to have a hard time understanding that the USA is not the world, and that in several countries, people cannot be fired over ema

Twitter’s US HR department seems to have a hard time understanding that the USA is not the world, and that in several countries, people cannot be fired over email, nor can local employment regulations be ignored. I am looking forward to seeing how this part is going to play out. I.e. how much protection is there actually in the EU vs. fluffy sounding "protections" that aren't really worth the paper they're written on. This seems like the ultimate test of those protections. I really hope it's not just fluffy words. On the other hand, there is the "salt water theory" of how this is going to play out (and the article I think proves that too): If you turn up the heat, the good guys will leave first. I.e. the water will evaporate, leaving only a salty brine: Elon Musk [...] set up meetings with key engineers in an attempt to persuade them to stay. Some employees were offered up to $100,000 in raises to stay[...]. Still, more than 1,000 employees quit that day, taking voluntary severance.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
? These protections have been, well, protecting employees from companies much larger and much more litigious than Twitter. A lot of it has been made around troubles with car manufacturers and other industries, and involves unions (something the US doesn't seem to understand is a necessary thing). There's been larger layoffs that have all respected the law, because judges do not fuck around with this. It's one thing to fire one employee and bet that he will not have the time or money to fight for two months of back pay. It's a whole other to fire more than 50 people (which in most of europe is the trigger for mass layoffs) and not have even the state have a look at it.
bko 4y ago
> On the other hand, there is the "salt water theory" of how this is going to play out (and the article I think proves that too): If you turn up the heat, the good guys will leave first. I.e. the water will evaporate, leaving only a salty brine: It could be the reverse. If you take at face value that twitter is trying to refocus on actual improvements to the product as opposed to whatever the thousands of engineers were doing before, then some people may be attracted to that work environment. In my experience the best engineers have left jobs because they're bored, not because of a lack of perks or money. A lot of people leave a lot of money, ridiculous benefits and a 20 hours work week by leaving FAANG so they can work on something meaningful, even if it is a CRUD app. At least they can point to something and say "I did that". There's a lot to do at twitter that was not a priority in the last decade. Things that seem like bugs (e.g. mobile app looking at a tweet and it disappears or gets pushed away), to search being awful (can't search specific users or before/after or exclude or anything really, its just a black box that sometimes works), to opening up and consolidating the API with the developer API, to actually getting rid of bots. These aren't necessarily hard problems. This is exactly what a startup would be doing and would definitely drive engagement. But for some reason Twitter has deprioritized these for ... other things? But now it looks like it might actually be an exciting place to work.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  Your hypothetical "best engineers" are not going to look at Twitter and think "this is a company that values strong technical skills". They're going to see a micromanager CEO who has developers print out code and send in weekly reports to then decide, without any clear rubric, that some of them are not good enough.
- fsociety 4y ago
  As an engineer, I do not look at Twitter today and think about how much more reliable it will be in the next year. Nothing Elon has done signals this.
the_gipsy 4y ago
> how much protection is there actually in the EU vs. fluffy sounding "protections" that aren't really worth the paper they're written on. You could also look at the millions of times these "protections" have been tested in court already. There is no magic escape hatch for Twitter or USA companies in general. If people are not fired properly, they are effectively still working at the (twitter EU) company. After a court sentence, the tax labor institution will straight seize the money from the companies bank accounts, with priority over any other debt collection. The only way not to pay out the workers is literal bankruptcy, and even for that case there are special funds in place. Court sentences may take a long time, but after a short time (1 or 2 weeks) of not being allowed to work by your employer, you can just start at another job while waiting for a proper firing notice or the court sentence. BTW an employer can absolutely fire someone at will in the EU, just not "on the spot". You have to either give a period or pay it out, and you cannot fire a large amount/fraction of employees together at will - you have to open a special process and then justify it, e.g. profit losses.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  > BTW an employer can absolutely fire someone at will in the EU The EU is not a single jurisdiction. In Germany, the above statement is not true. You can't fire without cause (at least not after the probationary period).
- tharkun__ 4y ago
  That's the thing, what do you actually get vs. what Twitter was providing anyway? And layoffs are definitely possible in every country. To take Germany as an example, since my sibling already mentioned it. You absolutely can do layoffs in Germany. There can be "complications" like a workers council (Betriebsrat), unions are a thing (read: https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Mitarbeiter-in-Deutschland-wehren-sich-gegen-Kuendigungen-7348373.html https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Mitarbeiter-in-Deutschland...) Now reading a bit about this online, I found https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-contract.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-co... which says this about severance that might get paid instead of large legal battles: This severance will often amount to 50% of the monthly salary per year of service How is that so much different from what Musk was going to give the "you're not going to have to come to work starting tomorrow" crowd that got 3 months full pay severance? I'm not saying Musk is right in how he's doing this. I absolutely don't. But the oft hailed worker's rights seem not to do much more than what Musk was giving most people anyway. Depending on tenure they maybe even got a better severance, while a 10 year employee might be better off fighting and then settling for the above (or better).

ohgodplsno 4y ago

? These protections have been, well, protecting employees from companies much larger and much more litigious than Twitter. A lot of it has been made around troubles with car manufacturers and other industries, and involves unions (something the US doesn't seem to understand is a necessary thing). There's been larger layoffs that have all respected the law, because judges do not fuck around with this. It's one thing to fire one employee and bet that he will not have the time or money to fight for two months of back pay. It's a whole other to fire more than 50 people (which in most of europe is the trigger for mass layoffs) and not have even the state have a look at it.

bko 4y ago

> On the other hand, there is the "salt water theory" of how this is going to play out (and the article I think proves that too): If you turn up the heat, the good guys will leave first. I.e. the water will evaporate, leaving only a salty brine: It could be the reverse. If you take at face value that twitter is trying to refocus on actual improvements to the product as opposed to whatever the thousands of engineers were doing before, then some people may be attracted to that work environment. In my experience the best engineers have left jobs because they're bored, not because of a lack of perks or money. A lot of people leave a lot of money, ridiculous benefits and a 20 hours work week by leaving FAANG so they can work on something meaningful, even if it is a CRUD app. At least they can point to something and say "I did that". There's a lot to do at twitter that was not a priority in the last decade. Things that seem like bugs (e.g. mobile app looking at a tweet and it disappears or gets pushed away), to search being awful (can't search specific users or before/after or exclude or anything really, its just a black box that sometimes works), to opening up and consolidating the API with the developer API, to actually getting rid of bots. These aren't necessarily hard problems. This is exactly what a startup would be doing and would definitely drive engagement. But for some reason Twitter has deprioritized these for ... other things? But now it looks like it might actually be an exciting place to work.

Tainnor 4y ago
Your hypothetical "best engineers" are not going to look at Twitter and think "this is a company that values strong technical skills". They're going to see a micromanager CEO who has developers print out code and send in weekly reports to then decide, without any clear rubric, that some of them are not good enough.
fsociety 4y ago
As an engineer, I do not look at Twitter today and think about how much more reliable it will be in the next year. Nothing Elon has done signals this.

the_gipsy 4y ago

> how much protection is there actually in the EU vs. fluffy sounding "protections" that aren't really worth the paper they're written on. You could also look at the millions of times these "protections" have been tested in court already. There is no magic escape hatch for Twitter or USA companies in general. If people are not fired properly, they are effectively still working at the (twitter EU) company. After a court sentence, the tax labor institution will straight seize the money from the companies bank accounts, with priority over any other debt collection. The only way not to pay out the workers is literal bankruptcy, and even for that case there are special funds in place. Court sentences may take a long time, but after a short time (1 or 2 weeks) of not being allowed to work by your employer, you can just start at another job while waiting for a proper firing notice or the court sentence. BTW an employer can absolutely fire someone at will in the EU, just not "on the spot". You have to either give a period or pay it out, and you cannot fire a large amount/fraction of employees together at will - you have to open a special process and then justify it, e.g. profit losses.

Tainnor 4y ago
> BTW an employer can absolutely fire someone at will in the EU The EU is not a single jurisdiction. In Germany, the above statement is not true. You can't fire without cause (at least not after the probationary period).
tharkun__ 4y ago
That's the thing, what do you actually get vs. what Twitter was providing anyway? And layoffs are definitely possible in every country. To take Germany as an example, since my sibling already mentioned it. You absolutely can do layoffs in Germany. There can be "complications" like a workers council (Betriebsrat), unions are a thing (read: https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Mitarbeiter-in-Deutschland-wehren-sich-gegen-Kuendigungen-7348373.html https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Mitarbeiter-in-Deutschland...) Now reading a bit about this online, I found https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-contract.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-co... which says this about severance that might get paid instead of large legal battles: This severance will often amount to 50% of the monthly salary per year of service How is that so much different from what Musk was going to give the "you're not going to have to come to work starting tomorrow" crowd that got 3 months full pay severance? I'm not saying Musk is right in how he's doing this. I absolutely don't. But the oft hailed worker's rights seem not to do much more than what Musk was giving most people anyway. Depending on tenure they maybe even got a better severance, while a 10 year employee might be better off fighting and then settling for the above (or better).