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I don't much know about SpaceX, but I stopped at "Tesla being objectively successful." Nothing at all indicates that for me. It's definitely popular and making

by jrm4 4y ago

I don't much know about SpaceX, but I stopped at "Tesla being objectively successful." Nothing at all indicates that for me. It's definitely popular and making big moves, but so did FTX. Given empty promises, shoddy design, crypto and other financial f**ery, etc, I see no good reason to strongly believe Tesla is in anything for the long haul.

rayiner 4y ago
Tesla makes real products you can buy and take apart. It’s hard to hide fakery the way you can with financial companies.
- LadyCailin 4y ago
  Teslas have very little different from other electric cars, when it comes exclusively to hardware. The difference is the software, which, no, you can’t take apart, and given that “FSD will be here any day” for many years now (and also kills people), I’m not convinced there isn’t fuckery happening there either.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    That's not true at all. Tesla's have objectively better hardware than any other available EV in terms of performance, efficiency, and range.
    - theCrowing 4y ago
      That's objectively not true anymore. A lot of cars released in the last 2 years have similar or better stats.
      - hunterb123 4y ago
        Well go ahead, provide the best car for comparison out of your list of "a lot of cars". Then we can objectively compare it to the closest Tesla model to it. That is if that car is even being manufactured at any scale at all...
        theCrowing 4y ago
        When the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the loser...
        hunterb123 4y ago
        Where is the slander, and where is the car to compare? I see you went to my profile to find something to say to me, but nothing to expand on your opinion so we can objectively compare better cars as you suggested originally. And yes that's why I put that quote in my profile, people will go after the person when they don't want to defend their statements, like you did.
        theCrowing 4y ago
        Curious if you have much success with being aggressive and condescending in conversations? I wouldn't even bother discussing anything with you but I saw there are enough answers in the parent comment... so you can read and flamebait there :0)
        hunterb123 4y ago
        You're still just talking about me and not about a car to compare to a Tesla. > A lot of cars released in the last 2 years have similar or better stats. reply Please provide an example of one of the cars you are talking about.
        theCrowing 4y ago
        Na... I am good bro. :o) I would have liked to discuss the topic but certainly not with you.
    - timmytokyo 4y ago
      The Consumer Reports 2022 automobile reliability survey ranks Tesla 19th out of 24 auto manufacturers.
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        Note that what you said does not contradict what the person you replied to said.
    - Ztynovovk 4y ago
      BYD sold more cars in H122 than Tesla. Elon Stan detected. Zeekr, a Chinese brand goes 621 miles, or 1,000 kilometers, on a single charge. More than the models that now lead the U.S. market in battery range: the Lucid Air, with 520 miles, and the Tesla Model S, with 405 miles.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      Tesla does not have objectively better hardware in terms of performance (Porsche), efficiency (GM), or range (Lucid). It does have the objectively worst built cars at every price point they sell.
- x0x0 4y ago
  Tesla (to their credit!) took advantage of an unserved opportunity, including heavy government subsidization, to build electric cars. And they fucking did it. However, I strongly doubt they will succeed going forward. They are in the midst of a wave of competition from Porsche, Mercedes, GM, Ford, VW, Kia, etc; across all segments of the market. They have failed to deliver on self-driving, and have a 0% chance of success moving forward (as admitted by pulling their lidar sensors out). They still aren't particularly good at fit/finish/quality of their cars. And finally, Tesla (imo) desperately needs a ceo who thinks about little more than threading the needle on the narrow success path moving forward. Instead, they have someone busy breaking Twitter. So, is Tesla objectively successful? I'd say no, because I don't think it's clear they will be a live company in 10 years. I think a huge amount of their success came from being the only company that sold a non-shitty electric car, and now that competitive umbrella is gone, they're likely to fail.
lucaronin 4y ago
Of course anything can happen in the long run, but right now it sells products that millions of people love and is a public company that employs 1000s of people — that's already a pretty high bar to me!
- froggychairs 4y ago
  It’s probably safe to assume the truth is mundane. Tesla stock is definitely overvalued (at least it was a few months ago. I haven’t checked recently) and the Tesla brand will likely just become a staple car brand (ala Honda, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc).
nerdface 4y ago
That’s not really comparable. Tesla make tangible products that are readily sold and actively used all over the world. Their success has been so great that it pushed other companies to move into the EV market. Tesla are known to make premature promises sure, but they do eventually deliver on those promises.
- jrm4 4y ago
  I can't deny the cheerleading factor, for sure. But we also know there's a LOT of hot air in this company. The question is, does that hot air get replaced with quality, or does the thing deflate? Time will tell.
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  Full self driving is only the most prominent example of many unfulfilled promises.
  - cbeach 4y ago
    Err they just rolled it out to the whole of North America
    - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
      “Our goal is, and I feel pretty good about this goal, that we’ll be able to do a demonstration drive of full autonomy all the way from LA to New York, from home in LA to let’s say dropping you off in Time Square in New York, and then having the car go park itself, by the end of next year [2017],” he said on a press call today. “Without the need for a single touch, including the charger.” https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/19/musk-targeting-coast-to-coast-test-drive-of-fully-self-driving-tesla-by-late-2017/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/19/musk-targeting-coast-to-co... Would you say this promise has been fulfilled?
      - cbeach 4y ago
        No, it's taken much longer than that. But Musk is far closer to this goal than anyone else. Other solutions rely on geo-fenced known areas, LIDAR sensors (which will never understand the whole picture e.g. coloured traffic lights), and non-generalised AI. What Tesla is shooting for is much more ambitious, and much more likely to succeed in my opinion. Why be pedantic about forward-looking announcements, rather than celebrating the incredible things Tesla AI has acheived so far (and continues to acheive)? The cars can now navigate competently through city streets. That was sci-fi just a few years ago.
tomnipotent 4y ago
Tesla has 68% of the electric car market, 20% of the luxury market, and 2-3% of the overall auto market. Where does your personal definition of successful begin?
- jrm4 4y ago
  Just not enough time in the market + Elon being good at capital raising and cheerleading. I'm not saying they're definitely a failure, I'm 100% saying there's no reason to necessarily believe that this sustains in the future. "Tesla has a real shot at being successful" is definitely true. "Tesla is unquestionably already a success" is not.
- maximinus_thrax 4y ago
  Are these numbers going up or down?
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Their percentage is going down as the EV market itself is growing faster than Tesla sales.
  - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
    And, having (temporarily) achieved that market share, are they earning enough profits to justify their risk-adjusted cost of capital?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
dahfizz 4y ago
They are an EV company that sells more EVs than everyone else combined. How is that not success?
Kon5ole 4y ago
A little over ten years ago they sold fewer cars than Rolls Royce. Today they sell more cars than Volvo, and they are profitable. That's objectively successful. That they were arguably the main reason why every other carmaker is transitioning to electric cars is subjectively (to me) a far greater success. The transition is past the point of no return even if Tesla were to disappear tomorrow,
- jrm4 4y ago
  That is very fair. I definitely agree if Tesla turns out to be some kind of failure in other regards, it gets credit for "forcing a change in the game."

by jrm4 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

Tesla makes real products you can buy and take apart. It’s hard to hide fakery the way you can with financial companies.

LadyCailin 4y ago
Teslas have very little different from other electric cars, when it comes exclusively to hardware. The difference is the software, which, no, you can’t take apart, and given that “FSD will be here any day” for many years now (and also kills people), I’m not convinced there isn’t fuckery happening there either.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  That's not true at all. Tesla's have objectively better hardware than any other available EV in terms of performance, efficiency, and range.
  - theCrowing 4y ago
    That's objectively not true anymore. A lot of cars released in the last 2 years have similar or better stats.
    - hunterb123 4y ago
      Well go ahead, provide the best car for comparison out of your list of "a lot of cars". Then we can objectively compare it to the closest Tesla model to it. That is if that car is even being manufactured at any scale at all...
      - theCrowing 4y ago
        When the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the loser...
        hunterb123 4y ago
        Where is the slander, and where is the car to compare? I see you went to my profile to find something to say to me, but nothing to expand on your opinion so we can objectively compare better cars as you suggested originally. And yes that's why I put that quote in my profile, people will go after the person when they don't want to defend their statements, like you did.
        theCrowing 4y ago
        Curious if you have much success with being aggressive and condescending in conversations? I wouldn't even bother discussing anything with you but I saw there are enough answers in the parent comment... so you can read and flamebait there :0)
        hunterb123 4y ago
        You're still just talking about me and not about a car to compare to a Tesla. > A lot of cars released in the last 2 years have similar or better stats. reply Please provide an example of one of the cars you are talking about.
        theCrowing 4y ago
        Na... I am good bro. :o) I would have liked to discuss the topic but certainly not with you.
  - timmytokyo 4y ago
    The Consumer Reports 2022 automobile reliability survey ranks Tesla 19th out of 24 auto manufacturers.
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      Note that what you said does not contradict what the person you replied to said.
  - Ztynovovk 4y ago
    BYD sold more cars in H122 than Tesla. Elon Stan detected. Zeekr, a Chinese brand goes 621 miles, or 1,000 kilometers, on a single charge. More than the models that now lead the U.S. market in battery range: the Lucid Air, with 520 miles, and the Tesla Model S, with 405 miles.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    Tesla does not have objectively better hardware in terms of performance (Porsche), efficiency (GM), or range (Lucid). It does have the objectively worst built cars at every price point they sell.
x0x0 4y ago
Tesla (to their credit!) took advantage of an unserved opportunity, including heavy government subsidization, to build electric cars. And they fucking did it. However, I strongly doubt they will succeed going forward. They are in the midst of a wave of competition from Porsche, Mercedes, GM, Ford, VW, Kia, etc; across all segments of the market. They have failed to deliver on self-driving, and have a 0% chance of success moving forward (as admitted by pulling their lidar sensors out). They still aren't particularly good at fit/finish/quality of their cars. And finally, Tesla (imo) desperately needs a ceo who thinks about little more than threading the needle on the narrow success path moving forward. Instead, they have someone busy breaking Twitter. So, is Tesla objectively successful? I'd say no, because I don't think it's clear they will be a live company in 10 years. I think a huge amount of their success came from being the only company that sold a non-shitty electric car, and now that competitive umbrella is gone, they're likely to fail.

lucaronin 4y ago

Of course anything can happen in the long run, but right now it sells products that millions of people love and is a public company that employs 1000s of people — that's already a pretty high bar to me!

froggychairs 4y ago
It’s probably safe to assume the truth is mundane. Tesla stock is definitely overvalued (at least it was a few months ago. I haven’t checked recently) and the Tesla brand will likely just become a staple car brand (ala Honda, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc).

nerdface 4y ago

That’s not really comparable. Tesla make tangible products that are readily sold and actively used all over the world. Their success has been so great that it pushed other companies to move into the EV market. Tesla are known to make premature promises sure, but they do eventually deliver on those promises.

jrm4 4y ago
I can't deny the cheerleading factor, for sure. But we also know there's a LOT of hot air in this company. The question is, does that hot air get replaced with quality, or does the thing deflate? Time will tell.
ProjectArcturis 4y ago
Full self driving is only the most prominent example of many unfulfilled promises.
- cbeach 4y ago
  Err they just rolled it out to the whole of North America
  - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
    “Our goal is, and I feel pretty good about this goal, that we’ll be able to do a demonstration drive of full autonomy all the way from LA to New York, from home in LA to let’s say dropping you off in Time Square in New York, and then having the car go park itself, by the end of next year [2017],” he said on a press call today. “Without the need for a single touch, including the charger.” https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/19/musk-targeting-coast-to-coast-test-drive-of-fully-self-driving-tesla-by-late-2017/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/19/musk-targeting-coast-to-co... Would you say this promise has been fulfilled?
    - cbeach 4y ago
      No, it's taken much longer than that. But Musk is far closer to this goal than anyone else. Other solutions rely on geo-fenced known areas, LIDAR sensors (which will never understand the whole picture e.g. coloured traffic lights), and non-generalised AI. What Tesla is shooting for is much more ambitious, and much more likely to succeed in my opinion. Why be pedantic about forward-looking announcements, rather than celebrating the incredible things Tesla AI has acheived so far (and continues to acheive)? The cars can now navigate competently through city streets. That was sci-fi just a few years ago.

tomnipotent 4y ago

Tesla has 68% of the electric car market, 20% of the luxury market, and 2-3% of the overall auto market. Where does your personal definition of successful begin?

jrm4 4y ago
Just not enough time in the market + Elon being good at capital raising and cheerleading. I'm not saying they're definitely a failure, I'm 100% saying there's no reason to necessarily believe that this sustains in the future. "Tesla has a real shot at being successful" is definitely true. "Tesla is unquestionably already a success" is not.
maximinus_thrax 4y ago
Are these numbers going up or down?
- mlindner 4y ago
  Their percentage is going down as the EV market itself is growing faster than Tesla sales.
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  And, having (temporarily) achieved that market share, are they earning enough profits to justify their risk-adjusted cost of capital?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

dahfizz 4y ago

They are an EV company that sells more EVs than everyone else combined. How is that not success?

Kon5ole 4y ago

A little over ten years ago they sold fewer cars than Rolls Royce. Today they sell more cars than Volvo, and they are profitable. That's objectively successful. That they were arguably the main reason why every other carmaker is transitioning to electric cars is subjectively (to me) a far greater success. The transition is past the point of no return even if Tesla were to disappear tomorrow,

jrm4 4y ago
That is very fair. I definitely agree if Tesla turns out to be some kind of failure in other regards, it gets credit for "forcing a change in the game."