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I do somewhat agree with the security aspects, though it seems to be in-process security measures are not the panacea. > Overall JVM or CLR always seemed too h

by kaba0 4y ago

I do somewhat agree with the security aspects, though it seems to be in-process security measures are not the panacea. > Overall JVM or CLR always seemed too heavyweight for many use cases. The most common implementation may be; there are plenty of tiny jvms, some target embedded devices even.

oblio 4y ago
Yeah, but then you run into the problem of, "are those tiny JVMs": 1. Well supported by a company and a community 2. Are they free? Especially 2, it sounds ridiculous but frankly even huge corps just use free stuff whenever they can.
still_grokking 4y ago
> […] jvms, some target embedded devices even. Java was invented as IoT technology in the first place. Long before this acronym even existed. It run on all the old 4-line monochrome text display dumb phones. Java runs on SmartCards.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Yeah, I know, but those are not the most streamlined ways of using Java nowadays, that’s why I didn’t highlight these parts as much (also, smartcards only run java ME, which is a subset of SE)
  - elcritch 4y ago
    Also most of them are also only support programming in Java. This always limited running arbitrary C code, or other languages like C++, Go, Nim, Rust, etc.
    - still_grokking 4y ago
      The JVM is Turing complete. So you can run any language you please on it. The question is—as always—how efficient this is. But this goes also the other way around. Even you can in theory run arbitrary languages on a WASM runtime the question how efficient this is stands also! And in fact running anything else than "C languages" in WASM is at least as inefficient as running "C languages" on the JVM…
      - kaba0 4y ago
        > And in fact running anything else than "C languages" in WASM is at least as inefficient as running "C languages" on the JVM… Hell, it is a really safe bet to say that running a C-like program on the JVM is much much faster than porting a whole runtime (which is very performance-oriented) on top of a runtime and make it run some code. Wasm simply can’t expose the optimizations runtimes routinely make use of (template interpreters for example))
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    Sure! I wanted only to point out that using the word "even" in the cited part is kind of "funny". Because this was actually the originally intended usage of Java. It was invented as safe replacement of C/C++ especially for embedded development. (But now, sure, it ended up on the really huge boxes in DCs).

by kaba0 4y ago

oblio 4y ago

Yeah, but then you run into the problem of, "are those tiny JVMs": 1. Well supported by a company and a community 2. Are they free? Especially 2, it sounds ridiculous but frankly even huge corps just use free stuff whenever they can.

still_grokking 4y ago

> […] jvms, some target embedded devices even. Java was invented as IoT technology in the first place. Long before this acronym even existed. It run on all the old 4-line monochrome text display dumb phones. Java runs on SmartCards.

kaba0 4y ago
Yeah, I know, but those are not the most streamlined ways of using Java nowadays, that’s why I didn’t highlight these parts as much (also, smartcards only run java ME, which is a subset of SE)
- elcritch 4y ago
  Also most of them are also only support programming in Java. This always limited running arbitrary C code, or other languages like C++, Go, Nim, Rust, etc.
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    The JVM is Turing complete. So you can run any language you please on it. The question is—as always—how efficient this is. But this goes also the other way around. Even you can in theory run arbitrary languages on a WASM runtime the question how efficient this is stands also! And in fact running anything else than "C languages" in WASM is at least as inefficient as running "C languages" on the JVM…
    - kaba0 4y ago
      > And in fact running anything else than "C languages" in WASM is at least as inefficient as running "C languages" on the JVM… Hell, it is a really safe bet to say that running a C-like program on the JVM is much much faster than porting a whole runtime (which is very performance-oriented) on top of a runtime and make it run some code. Wasm simply can’t expose the optimizations runtimes routinely make use of (template interpreters for example))
- still_grokking 4y ago
  Sure! I wanted only to point out that using the word "even" in the cited part is kind of "funny". Because this was actually the originally intended usage of Java. It was invented as safe replacement of C/C++ especially for embedded development. (But now, sure, it ended up on the really huge boxes in DCs).